There is a 3rd dimension this ignores. When both candidates are bad how do you voice that? How do you tell both parties this is not acceptable? If you hold your nose and vote, how do you stop getting more of the same?
It’s a hostage situation, and I understand those who have decided they aren’t negotiating with these people anymore.
The time to pick the candidates was back in the primaries. This late in the election, you’re not voting for who you want, but instead voting against who you don’t want.
Does it suck? Yes, but there are really 3 responses to this situation.
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Work within the system to change it. This involves voting in primaries, and supporting your preferred candidate, and voting against the worst candidate in the general, since that is how the electoral system (in the US) works.
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Work outside of the system to change it. Start a revolution, use forceful tactics. Acknowledge that the system is incapable of changing in the way you need it to. You aren’t just refusing to participate, you’re refusing to let the system operate.
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Accept the system and don’t change anything. Stay home, and pretend that people acknowledge your lack of a vote and your refusal to be represented. Stand by as the Nazi thugs your apathy enables, take your family, friends, neighbors and eventually you, away. At least you can hold your head high when you get put against the wall, knowing that your silence totally absolves you from the consequences of your inaction.
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If you hold your nose and vote, how do you stop getting more of the same?
Theres no option for that. its a systematic failure.
You choose the option that you can better work with
Subdivisions - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYYdQB0mkEU different Rush tune. op title quote from Rush - Freewill (Audio) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urBpdyFCZmo
One side started war with iran while other side didn’t
One side destroyed relationship with strongest allies for nothing while other side didn’t.
One side went to war with people on the streets with ICE and lowered recruitment requirements while other side didn’t.
One side gave us Pete Hegseth while otherside didn’t.
One side started tariff war for nothing while other side didn’t.
Both sides same though I guess?
One side destroyed relationship with strongest allies for nothing while other side didn’t.
The US has never had a single ally, maybe except Israel. Only vassals.
If you think this is the first administration to abuse and antagonize countries it usually works with, you have not been paying any attention to what has been happening for the last 250 years.
The US is singlehandedly responsible for the EU still not being more closely united, as it always had and used its de facto veto over anything.
Don’t forget gutting USAID and research funding, including children’s cancer research, so they can instead pay for the hired thugs in ICE. Legitimately one of the most shameful things the US has ever done in terms of deaths caused, in the short and long term.
One side is circling their wagons around a child fucking pedophile rapist.
The other side isn’t.
Excellent example of what both sides do. Twist the facts, misrepresnt the truth, flat out lie, then blame everyone else.
Not saying don’t vote of course, but boy will establishment dems pretend that this is a mandate for them. If you can, vote for progressives, for DSA, for anyone that actually will stand up to fascism.
Do that in primaries, where only 10% even turnout. Doing it in the general is purposely allowing the Republican to win with possibly less than 50%.
Not like democrat primaries have ever represented the will of the voters the last ten years
What do you mean by this?
The dumbest thing is how we still haven’t done anything close to what France and other countries are doing to actually make their voice heard. Won’t change my mind. Yes, you should go vote. You should also overthrow the government.
We should start with a national, general strike.
America should call the French for help overthrowing the government, like they did 250 years ago
Too late to vote now. Republicans aren’t leaving so if Americans want their country back, they need to take action. Spoiler, they won’t.
France isn’t overthrowing their government, they’re protesting. Huge difference.
I’m down for both.
Nobody is saying you cannot demand better from your elected officials.
But if you sit at home you let fascists win.
It’s not a protest, it’s a surrender.
You can’t demand better when you give up the only leverage you have against them.
What leverage? “Give into my demands or I’ll shoot myself in the foot”?
Sorry, that should be “give into my demands or I’ll sacrifice the lives of the weak and vulnerable because their lives mean less to me than making a political point”
^^^^^^ the protest non voters are part of why so many Ukrainians are dying, why Israel has stronger and more deadly weapons, why climate change just got massively accelerated, why research funding and USAID got gutted (including life saving vaccines and children’s cancer research).
somemany of you will die but not me so that’s a price I’m willing to pay.If you’re going to not vote out of protest maybe don’t do it in the most impactful election of our lifetime.
Every election always seems to be framed as “the most important of our lifetime”. There will never be a perfect time to change our habits and actually do something different.
Now with another one of these big bogus showdowns looming down on us, I can already pick up the stench of another bummer. I understand, along with a lot of other people, that the big thing this year is Beating Nixon. But that was also the big thing, as I recall, twelve years ago in 1960 – and as far as I can tell, we’ve gone from bad to worse to rotten since then, and the outlook is for more of the same. —Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing: On the Campaign Trail ’72 (1973)
So if we don’t attempt to change now, then when? How long do we continue to let perfect be the enemy of good?
Cool, so what is the plan?
I see so many comments leading up to every election talking about needing to flip the system, make big changes, and upset the status quo. What do we actually see? You all do absolutely nothing, then crawl back into your holes after world democracy slides deeper into hell.
Some of us are out there protesting, and organising, and trying to fix what we can in our community. But we also recognise that we need to work and vote within the system we are trapped in until we can dismantle it.
This:
Even where there is no prospect of achieving their election the workers must put up their own candidates to preserve their independence, to gauge their own strength and to bring their revolutionary position and party standpoint to public attention. They must not be led astray by the empty phrases of the democrats, who will maintain that the workers’ candidates will split the democratic party and offer the forces of reaction the chance of victory. All such talk means, in the final analysis, that the proletariat is to be swindled. The progress which the proletarian party will make by operating independently in this way is infinitely more important than the disadvantages resulting from the presence of a few reactionaries in the representative body. If the forces of democracy take decisive, terroristic action against the reaction from the very beginning, the reactionary influence in the election will already have been destroyed.
—Karl Marx “Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League.” London, England. March 1850.
Vote within the system, sure. But make sure you voting for those who represent you, not the lesser evil who keeps you trapped in the system.
1850
hmm
“You can’t vote for who actually represents you! You have to vote for your oppressor because if you don’t they will make me suffer! So, throw yourself under the bus to protect my comfort because I refuse to have solidarity with those who are currently oppressed by the status quo.”
The establishment party you keep trying to force people to vote for are already sacrificing the weak and vulnerable to maintain the system of capitalist-imperialist oppression. The party is the one sacrificing them by refusing to meet the demands of the people they are supposed to be representing.
The only (legal) leverage over the ruling class the people have is their vote for who to put in power. If you prove to always give them power regardless of if they meet the obligations of their representative position then you have thus abandoned any leverage you had to incentivize them to change.
The system is a broken one that is set up to ensure that the ruling oligarchy can continually oppress the working class so long as they threaten the middle with a “greater evil”. And it will continue as is until people stop letting perfect be the enemy of good by waiting for the perfect time to change their habits and actually vote for someone who truly represents them instead of continuing to abdicate all their political autonomy into the hands of the lesser evil.
Right, so weeks out from the midterms your suggestion is… to withhold your vote from one party to send some sort of scolding message, while letting the pedophile and his army of racist goons continue to round up minorities and threaten to deport elected officials they disagree with?
No one is asking you to throw yourself under the bus, just to realise that we are all, globally, under the bus already. Some people are just trying to get their head out from under the wheels for the slim hope of dragging their mangled bodies out of the way of the next car.
“I’ll vote for you, but you better change or I’ll vote for you again”
So you can demand better. But actually taking any concrete action to hold a party accountable when they ignore your demands is beyond the pale.
Gotta love the “logic” of ShitLibs.
You make the critical mistake in assuming that not voting for the Dems actually hurts them.
I’d say they’re also happy to be in perpetual “opposition”.
So really the only thing not voting is doing is saying that you want more dead children.
“We can demand better! We are still going to abdicate power to you regardless of if you listen but we can still technically make the demands!”
There are loads of people who think you can’t demand better from your elected officials. People were out protesting Mamdani for being a liberal zionist and I saw plenty of commenters saying how they must’ve been paid opposition because how could anyone be criticising Mamdani?
Uh-oh. You promoted voting. Time for all the dbzer0 and .ml chodes to show up and tell you why you shouldn’t do that.
Which, of course, is all the more reason to vote. If you do the opposite of anything anyone from either of those instances say, you are almost assuredly doing the right thing.
If you sit on the fence as the fence burns down, you’ll end up in the dirt with everyone else.
Am I also a chode or does my chosen instance absolve me of my crimes of wanting to see the USA crumble?
Oh I’ve seen a few already. It’d be adorable that they think they are making something resembling a point if it wasn’t so intentionally harmful to the future of so many people that are being oppressed to the point of suicide.
If you aren’t blocking toxic instances on Lemmy you don’t give a damn about much and probably won’t vote anyway.
Fediverse in theory: and all these different instances can connect to each other, it’s so cool!
Fediverse in practice: [bullying people for being on the wrong instance]
Blocking isn’t bullying.
the instance tribalism is always so unhinged
Painting with a broad brush much?
The real kicker is that the guy driving the bus is being paid to drive it off a cliff by the company that makes buses so that they can sell us a new bus even though no one will be left to buy it because the bus futures boost their stock price today.
Aha! So my choices are facists who will drive me off the cliff slowly or fascists who will drive me off the cliff quickly . !
NICE CHOICES GOIS!
‘jUst VoTE tHe FasciSm AwAy1!!¿¡21’
Voting doesn’t remove your ability to do other things as well. The car going off the cliff slower gives you more time to do those other things.
For the record I mostly agree with you, but those other things necessarily require twisting the centrists’ arms, which means hitting them where it hurts (votes being one of the more obvious targets). To unpack the metaphor, putting all of one’s political capital into slower fascism naturally means that little to none of it will be going to no fascism; for example “implement this policy I want or I won’t vote for you” is a classic way to force politicians to do things but it’s impossible to pull off if your ultimate priority is preserving the slower fascism coalition. You can remember the Palestine protests for what that looks like in practice, but the short of it is that there are things you can’t do if you decide you’re never going to publicly oppose the centrists.
…ITs already goong off the cliff. Look at Sudan, Lebanon, Yemen, Palestine, Iran, Mexico, Colombia, and The Congo and then tell me that the car isnt goimg off the cliff already loool!🤭😏
ALSO have you seen what effects climate change is ALREADY having on different places on the planet?
I don’t disagree. Climate change is bad, and fascism is bad. No argument here. However, a government that causes less harm is preferable to a government that causes more. This is why voting, alongside a suite of other tactics (protests, strikes, civil disobedience, etc) are necessary if you’re interested in saving lives.
If you’re not, and are willing to sacrifice people on the altar of some hypothetical post-collapse better world, then i vehemently disagree.
…there are ALREADY people being sacrificed…wot?
…you didnt read my comment?
Abstaining from voting is just a vote to let others choose for you. It does not exempt you from the system.
You’re banned from .ml, !latestagecapitalism and r/Pyongyang.
I am also banned from .ml and LateStageCapitalism. Anyone who isn’t insufferable and possesses a functional brain is or will be banned from those wretched hives of scum and villainy.
BaD jAcKeTiNg
I don’t think the people downvoting this saw the mod who banned kingofras for bad jacketing proceeded to bad jacket someone else in the next thread about this subject.
Probably the same dick who banned me today honestly.
Lol. I think you got banned from Ye Powertrippin’ Bastards by that db0 dipshit right before I did.
It’s literally a sub for complaining about power tripping mods and that dipshit is going through it banning people he disagrees with. The irony is supreme.
I went to his profile and he describes himself as an “Epicurean Revolutionary Libertarian Socialist”, which had me rolling. How can he take himself seriously?
One effexor capsule at a time I assume
Yep I am fairly sure we’re talking about the same person. Lol
They banned me from countless subs. I actually at that point realized I never have good experiences with that instance so I went ahead and blocked it.
You forgot to end your comment with “, z-word pigdog!”
It’s not a protest, it’s a surrender.
Cuck voting
Absolutely! You’re part of “the system” due to the fact that you exist…
I prefer this equivalence: abstaining is voting according to the result of the election.
But the bus driver supports genocide. The whole bus is rotten. We should let the bus go off the cliff and then build a new bus. I’m sure enough of us will survive the crash to build a better bus afterwards. Many people will die but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make.
🤡🤡🤡
You chauvinists really deserved 9/11
Thank you for the clown emojis because I 100% thought you were seroius because of how many fools there are on Lemmy that believe that exact sentiment and they aren’t joking. Juvenile fools.
I almost added a /s too just to be safe
But the bus driver supports genocide. The whole bus is rotten.
You ever notice how the ‘burn it down’ people fall into two camps?
- not in the affected area: chicken-hawk types who advocate the sacrifice of others.
- in the affected area: I didn’t know the leopards of societal collapse, starvation, and violence, would eat my face.
Type 2 also includes the “why’s it taking so long? Look at all these people suffering through the collapse. We need to make it collapse faster so we get to the good part faster” people, without acknowledging that this is what collapse looks like: lots of suffering
Yeah but you can just blame all that suffering on the people trying to hold the whole thing together, because obviously if you just let the whole thing collapse then the suffering will end abruptly and a magical utopia can finally descend from the heavens! /s
You joke, but the number of people I’ve seen posting along the lines of ‘I don’t this, I’m exempted!’ Is extremely infuriating. The individualism bubble has them thinking it’s a shield from reality.
Who said there was a good part to get to? Turns out damaging the bus in any manner, whether by driving, inaction, or burning it on the road, is all bad. No one has mentioned hitting the brakes… oh wait, which one of you cut the lines?
Just a bunch of moralists sniffing their own farts.
How about nobody in this situation is virtuous.
Go vote for pedo blue and tell yourself how righteous and great you are compared to the other shitty option camps.
Before you bitch and moan at me for differing from groupthink: I will be voting for blue pedo this turn about but I’m not gonna be online in a fart smelling circle with a bunch of do nothing moralists about it.
Please get over yourselves, you vote for slavery that’s out of sight abroad and pedos who eat babies so you can play gta6, you aren’t righteous.
pedo blue
This reeks of desperation.
I will be voting for blue pedo this turn about
Lol. Immediately abandon your morals. You don’t have a problem calling them pedos but you’ll vote for pedos…this time.
Literally what I’m talking about. Look down on people while you vote for a corporate democrat.
Your comment is exactly what I would expect from someone who just loves the smell of their own shit.
How are people supposed to feel bad about suffering when it’s people who talk down to them like you who will suffer? Maybe I will just not vote with them. Let’s crash the bus.
All in all, a good win for you though. Simpsons memes are always a hoot. I wish I was as moral and just and smart as you.
The fact you assume we aren’t holding our noses while we vote is your problem. You take a morally superior attitude while doing exactly what we’re doing. Except we don’t go around trash talking the people we’re voting for a few weeks before the election, since that might MAKE THEM FUCKING LOSE
Your presumptuousness and hypocrisy are disgusting.
“The five non-voters are the true anarchists who see the violence inherent in the system. Actually the two who voted against driving off the cliff are wrong for even supporting a system in which voters can choose to drive the bus off the cliff. They’re actually worse than the three who voted to drive the bus off the cliff, because they tacitly approve of driving the bus off the cliff just by participating in the system which allows the bus to be driven off the cliff, while fooling themselves into feeling morally absolved of the decision to drive off the cliff! So the non-voters are the only virtuous ones in this situation”
(The /s should be clear, right?)
(The /s should be clear, right?)
… are you new to the Fediverse? I encounter such arguments uttered unironically virtually every time I browse here - especially in election season.
You’ve angered the .ml and .dbzer0 trolls.
Many people will die but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make.
But not from the genocides?
in both the thought experiment and the US vote, the genocide happens no matter which way you vote, or if you don’t vote at all… there are no choices that have a real chance of reducing the genocide
Pedal to the metal, accelerate!
Appropriate emojis considering the message. Hoping they’re in place of a /s
Absolutely in place of /s
I know you guys won’t, because your job is to convince as many people as possible not to vote after all, but god do I yearn for the day when the Democrats start to appeal to non-voters by other means than “at least we’re not as bad as the other guy”. If you think that this is an effective strategy, you might just be able to wrestle defeat from the jaws of victory. Just keep letting marginalized folk know that they shouldn’t count on their lives improving, because you’re commited to doing just slightly better than the opposition. Don’t campaign on promises of anything materially better, only on being paid off by the same interests groups as the “other side”, except for the fact you’re going to keep doing those things they paid you for - but politely. And if you think that the existence of my argument against your strategy on the internet is going to ruin your chances for it working at all, and you’re going to blame those arguing against it for your loss while you’re blasting the same old points of “we rape and murder arguably less”, then BOY can I figure out the results it’s going to bring.
Anyone who was going to vote for the lesser evil is going to do that anyway. Anyone who’s on the fence will most likely decide to sit this one out (again). Claiming it’s someones moral obligation to vote for terrible (but slightly less) people is going to depress votes, exactly as it did with Harris. Change your strategy or lose.
Just fucking… talk about the affordibility crisis and your plans to end it. About universal healthcare. About how Israel is a bunch on genocidal bastards. Just anything other than this proven, time and again, losing strategy. You have a field full of targets and a loaded gun. Only way you can miss is if you point it at your head. Or go further right to win MAGA voters, I guess…
There are democrats talking about those things, you just aren’t listening.
It’s too bad Harris didn’t during the ‘24 election, though
She did, you just weren’t listening.
She did but all we got was 24/7 coverage of “what do you have to say about israel Palestine” because apparently ukraine doesnt exist and neither do Americans or our healthcare or iran or any other issue in the world that she was infinitely better on.
Yup.
Selective hearing. It’s insane how often people complain about Dems not doing something when it’s literally part of their party’s policy platform and has been for a while.
Or how often I see someone complain about something the Dems aren’t doing when it’s something their party or their president literally passed or signed an EO for. People just don’t pay attention. And then you list out the bills or EO’s in question and they move the goalposts and cry harder to compensate for their inability to pay attention.
Do they need to do more? Duh. Do they actually get stuff done? Yeah, they actually do. And compared to the other party that only works in opposition to Americans, they technically get infinitely more done than their opponents.
It’s a combination really. Of Dems not being good at messaging and people just not fucking paying attention.
Messaging is hampered when the message is delivered by people who oppose you. The Dems don’t need help to shoot themselves in the foot, but they get it anyway.
I am, despite not being from USA I am following the midterm races from the imperial core because I know their results will affect my life, the way they did in previous elections. This post, and the vast majority of the propaganda spouted by Dems, is exactly that, though. There’s more criticism from the estabilishment Dems towards politicians that do make those points, like Mamdani or El-Sayed, than towards their opponents in the White House. And what does most of them do say about their plans in office? How do they campaign? Exactly the way you see here. And don’t get me wrong, I want bad politicians to lose and good ones to win. It’s good some do have reasonable strategy, they will do better than the dumbfucks who keep blasting that uncommited voters that don’t care about politics as much as they’ve been taught not to care, that just want to get through their hard day of work and worries - that those voters have to to make time to go and vote for slightly less known Epstein associate. It’s not even that I want those dogshit politicians to lose, though I can’t claim I see presidency of Newsom going better than Trump’s in terms of quality of living for people in USA, but probably noticably better for me in Europe. It’s just that they WILL LOSE AGAIN unless the messaging capabilities of the propagandists improve.
People who don’t vote, always end up voting for the winner.
Then I guess all those 2020 nonvoters should pat themselves on the back for Biden winning. Is that how that works?
Well said. Damn well said!
