A couple were told they faced a $200,000 (£146,500) medical bill when their baby was born prematurely in the US, despite them having travel insurance which covered her pregnancy.
I love the 'Achually, you are supposed to beg the hospitals and rely on your insurance shady deals." Comments in this thread.
Just so we are clear, you know the US is the only country with running water that also charges it’s citizens to remain alive, right?
This is NOT normal. Not the amount, the situation.
This is what’s so fucked up about being an American. Every time there’s a complaint about the system, some “good soul” comes out to explain how you avoid it.
Healthcare is expensive? Oh you have to negotiate with your doctors, your hospital, your insurance, and get it fixed.
Internet is too expensive? Oh you’re supposed to call them every few months to have them lower the prices by threatening to quit.
Oh, fast food is too expensive? Oh use the mobile app and take a picture of your butthole to get it back to normal!
Listen, I think we’re as barbaric about this as any reasonable person, but we really aren’t unique. Mexico, Egypt, and the Philippines aren’t doing so great, but they’re all modern nations with modern infrastructure in their urban areas. India has even worse health insurance than the US and while yes they’re still building out their plumbing systems, Mumbai and New Delhi are modern megapolises.
LOL not unique! Where exactly do you think the US stands when comparing their nominal GDP per capita with Mexico, Egypt, the Phillipines, Mumbai or Dehli?
US: #9 out of 193
Mexico… 71. Egypt… 134. Phillipines… 126. India… 140
Why don’t you take a look at the healthcare systems of the countries in the top 10 GDP per capita and make an actual apples to apples comparison, hm?
Yes, we’re a profoundly broken country in how we use our wealth. But you were over here acting like no other country that isnt entirely and devastatingly impoverished is failing it’s citizens this way, and I’m pointing out that no, once again we fall in line with developing nations rather than developed ones. And for those of us who wish for it to be a functional country, I think my framing is much more useful.
And i apologize for assuming you’re a European who knows nothing of anywhere beyond the Eurosphere and assumes developing nations don’t even have running water.
I’m saying it’s ridiculous, stupid and confusing to say “we aren’t unique”. The US is in the top 10 in GDP per capita but is ranked in the lower 50 when it comes to Healthcare.
But “we aren’t unique”.
American exceptionalism, unless its about taking responsibility I guess. Lmao
After a nine month legal battle, Zurich has reversed its decision and told the BBC it was sorry for the stress caused.
Yeah, very sorry I’m sure. Oopsie, we accidentally fought a nine month legal battle to avoid paying out the exact thing the insurance is for
“We’ve now strengthened and clarified our wording and guidance so other families travelling abroad at this stage of a pregnancy do not have to go through this experience.”
TLDR: the next couple is fucked
No, what this means is that they have increased premiums for anyone at 33 weeks of pregnancy and added something about premature births that will cost more if you’re traveling to America. Either that or put in specific language excluding coverage for premature births. Either way, insurance companies are a scam.
Like ‘hey, your baby is not covered, it’s 43 minutes under due’
Arguing the care wasn’t covered because the baby wasn’t named in the insurance despite explicitly covering pregnancy-related care is ghoulish behavior. I can’t fathom how you can argue that seriously and not feel like a piece of shit.
Travel insurance is a scam. I used to pay Allianz for cancellation insurance every trip but the one time I needed to claim it they denied it.
It’s not safe to travel to the US while pregnant or sick, they will take everything from you.
It’s just not safe to travel there ever
I’m certainly not going back until at least 2029. Let MAGA eat itself over the Epstein files and the next president reform the gun laws (as both sides are now talking about it) and then I’ll think about it.
It’s not safe to travel to the US while pregnant or sick, they will take everything from you.
Until Trump they also claimed the baby as US citizen which is dangerous because they demand taxes from their citizens whereever they are on this world.
Traveling in 3rd trimester is already medically dangerous.
Everyone knows blood attracts sharks, now we have sharks on planes.
Thanks obama.
Not trying to victim blame but do not go to America.
Also dont have kids
They’re Brits
I don’t see how the advice doesn’t apply. Do not go to U.S.A
Evwn Canadians should recons8der a US visit
Maybe your scummy government should’ve reconsidered their complicity with the US regime a long time ago.
Their virtue signalling because the big bully you were always friends with and help in their scumbaggery is now temporary bothering you.
hypocritesWhich government is my government? I don’t live in North America.
Ech, on re-read I see the problem … my apologies. I was typing too fast for my own good.
I meant that any Canadians considering a US visit shouldreconsider
It means Brits are the closest to the US with Canadians.
They love the banana republic.
Despite the temporary spat they will be back aiding them in their imperialist looting and mass murder
ah ok yeah I agree. Their elites seem to be quite “chummy” as brits would put it.
Insurance company trying to evade one job it is supposed to do
You get hired to help out a business in a emergency situation. You do nothing and get paid month after month. A couple years go by and finally the phone rings.
Hey man, we really need you right now! Come on in!
“Claim denied, I will see you in court.”
insurance
Some of them probably don’t even have the means to help, they just get lawyers to avoid accountability and write ridiculous terms for their policies, and in the EXTREME case they actually need to fix something they probably outsource it lol
You pay them to keep their lawyers on retainer
“But what about helping our people Bob!?”
We need a real life Mr Incredible to do that to every insurance CEO. Throw through 6 concrete walls.
Ah yes, the United States – Don’t get sick or you will have to fight tooth and nail to get your insurance company to pay for necessary medical care. This is a story heard over and over again stateside. If the U.S. was truly the best place in the world to live, this would simply not happen. As a person who has worked in healthcare in the U.S. for over 15 years, I feel this in my bones. I am glad you could get legal help and have the right outcome based on what you paid for. I would love nothing more than to see everyone who comes to the U.S. receive medical care appropriately – Nobody asks to get sick :(
i’m glad the medical side tries to stay focused on patient care. i’ve a friend in Mexico where they check ability to pay before any treatment begins. she was bleeding out and they waited until after her card was verified before doing anything. lower costs, maybe. One thing that being married to an RN has taught me, the billing department sends insanely inflated bills which are step 1 in their insurance negotiation. I got a bill for over $600,000, I laughed while still in the hospital bed. bill got negotiated down to $150,000. Even if there is a ginormous bill, you can postpone threatened collections by sending them anything, like $10/month. it will reset their billing escalation cycle. debts more than 7 years old will get written off. if all else fails, bankruptcy isn’t all that bad. shuffle assets to trusted family. the amount of money they waste on greedy negotiations far eclipses any actual cost for treatment. don’t stress over the bills. stress kills. let some fat lawyer worry about not getting a new car this year.
I dunno - my ex burned all the skin off his hand once, the first question at the emergency room was “how are you paying?” and we waited there 5 hours before they saw him, during which time it got so much worse he ended up needing more treatment & therapy. No we didn’t have insurance or money back then. They eventually arranged temporary Medicaid for him as he couldn’t work with the hand so burned. Which left us without his income (I had just given birth too) so without much food.
Anyway - this was in the 1990s but I am absolutely sure we had to wait because we could not pay, even though it was an obvious emergency.
some are worse than others. I’ve noticed going to a prompt care is much faster than going to ‘emergency room’. depends a lot on location and how busy they are that day. i haven’t been seen w/o insurance since 70s when i broke my hand in a fight. doubt they ever got paid for that cast.
Not germane. Zurich Insurance Group is not a USian medical insurance company.
Just a stark reminder that all insurance, no matter where you get it from and what country it originates in, is 100% a scam.
That’s just blatantly false. I’m all for hating companies that gouge people to make money, but insurance isn’t inherently a scam. Insurance, when implemented properly, is paying a low regular premium to offset a risk you can’t afford should it hit. I’ve insured my house against burning down, because I can afford to pay a small amount once a month while a fire (while unlikely) would bankrupt me. Most likely, I’ll lose money in the long run by paying for that insurance, but that’s not the point. The point is that I can afford to lose money over a 30-50 year period, but I cannot afford to lose my house at any single point during the next 30-50 years.
It’s a nice ideal. Insurance can in theory help smooth out whatever life throws at you. But in the modern world, their incentives are to not
The US health care industry is a scam
Yeah give me that line again after your house actually has burned down and you have to fight tooth and nail to get any money from the insurance company that you’ve been paying to for the last X number of years.
You are aware that the whole basis for my original comment (and follow-up) was that insurance isn’t inherently a scam, right? Any transaction can be turned into a scam if you refuse to hold up your end of the deal, but that doesn’t make the concept of transactions a scam in itself.
My impression is that US insurance companies are particularly bad about not paying up, and thereby scamming people. Luckily, I don’t live in the US, and don’t have any historical precedent that gives me reason to doubt my insurance company would pay up. The problem with insurance (and a lot of other things) in the US is a system that heavily incentivises squeezing consumers at every turn. The problem is not that insurance is an inherently a scam.
i’ll bet you and all your neighbors 100/mo, your house won’t burn down this month. send payments on time or else. Meanwhile, i lend you your money to pay for your mortgage with interest. have some more Kool-Aid.
Why would I take that when I already have a running bet with my insurance company where I only pay ≈ 20 USD / month?
The whole point here is that I can afford 20 USD/month indefinitely. However, having my house burn down at any point would be absolutely detrimental to my personal economy, to the point of bankrupting me and likely preventing me from being able to afford a new house in the foreseeable future. I’m well aware that in purely economic terms I’m taking a losing bet. The point is that the consequences should the bet strike home are so large that I can’t afford not to take it.
Of course, you could argue that I would be better off saving that money and being “my own insurance”. You would be right, except for the fact that the house burning down is just as likely tomorrow as in 20 years. If I had enough cash to insure myself, I obviously wouldn’t need to take this losing bet, but I don’t.
big insurers have millions of your neighbors paying 20/month. all i know is, ‘the house always wins’. they are swimming in cash. my dad used to sell car insurance. when cards became mandatory, he had an influx of ‘card buyers’. pay one month and get a card. stop paying. because they bet the odds of getting fined for no card were a lot better than odds of getting in a wreck. house wins, sells you ‘uninsured motorist’ coverage. people gamble on many things. insurance is good when you win. they lose when you win so deny, depose … I don’t know the answer. just try to hedge bets and look for ways to break even for all us non-greedy shmoes. i don’t like most insurance co.'s greed. have insurance as required and savings also. i’d never pay for extended warranty on something under $10k. that’s some easy bets for them.
I agree that the house is winning here (as always) and I also hate companies that squeeze us regular people for cash at every opportunity as much as the next person.
My point is that I don’t really see buying e.g. house insurance as a gamble as much as I see it as paying a monthly fee for the peace of mind it gives me to know that I won’t be financially ruined by a house fire or a burglary. It’s not about making money in the long term for me, it’s about mitigating the consequences of highly unlikely but absolutely devastating events.
Yes, it’s a for profit business that makes it’s profit off of trying to have the most accurate odds they can. They charge you slightly more than they expect to lose on you (the house edge) and then they’re betting on every roll of the dice. That’s exactly how casinos earn money (though casinos try to compete on experience and payout, while insurance competes on price and payout).
The difference is that the casino is attempting to take advantage of your greed and wants you to stay there and bet everything you have. Meanwhile the insurer is selling relief from fear of financial ruin and is asking you to make scheduled bets that you want to lose every month. American health insurance has massive issues and should be replaced with something akin to the NHS before it was defunded, but nobody is losing their shirt buying homeowners insurance unless the area they live in is now being pummeled by the climate crisis like southern California or the gulf of Mexico.
Would government run insurance be better? Yeah probably. But in the era before modern insurance a major part of the draw of fraternal organizations was that they served that role.
I am well aware of that. This couple’s experience was in parallel to what occurs all the time with people who have insurance in the U.S.
I don’t think anyone was sick here.
So, your perspective is that pregnant people who have life-threatening medical conditions arising from their pregnancy through no fault of their own should have to pay out-of-pocket? Additionally, in it sounds like you feel that premature births due to life-threatening medical issues that the mother is suffering from and subsequent aftercare for the mother and premature infant should also be paid for out of pocket?
Use condoms.
US health insurance pulled the same shitty tactic on me with my first born.
Both our kids were charged 6,000 to be born . . . Fun trick, where they charge the baby, since the mother has probably hit their out of pocket max, and that lets them jack it to the family max.
More Luigis please.
I feel like you should be able to tell them to go fuck themselves, since children can’t sign contracts.
Oh, that’s the fun part of it - it’s your debt, but on the children’s insurance. They’re moving the care from one patient to another (to max out family out of pocket charges), but the parents are on the contract and can be sued.
Can’t you declare bankruptcy for the kids then? Though that would probably fuck with the credit score? But I have no clue how that works.
“I don’t think we’ve ever sort of lost the feeling that there isn’t a wolf at the door”.
This captures the current American experience perfectly.
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ALL THESE WORLDS ARE YOURS EXCEPT AMERICA. ATTEMPT NO LANDING THERE.Sorry, I could not resist. How ironic that the original American movie quote said Europe (okay, the moon Europa) and now it’s basically reversed. (Kubrick, Space Odyssey 2001)
That sucks… Born in the US…
Bruce Springsteen has entered the chat. And that song is not celebratory
Paying taxes to the US forever!
Just checked, it appears you can renounce it :
the State Department no longer proactively attempts to prove such intent, and issues a Certificate of Loss of Nationality (CLN) only when an individual “affirmatively asserts” their relinquishment of citizenship.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relinquishment_of_United_States_nationality
Progress!
That poor child will now have to suffer dual citizenship in the US. That kid’s tax stuff will be a PITA when it starts working.
can you really not reject citizenships?
You can, but you have to pay fees and forefit a percent of your net worth.
The baby should do it now, while their net worth is $0
What if it doesn’t get rid of its citizenship? If it never goes to the US, the US system can never do anything about it simply not paying US taxes.
If they never go to the US or try to do business with the US, sure. It is, however, an unnecessary limitation on their future. Best to renounce the citizenship as soon as possible if they don’t want to keep it.
In the US, the penalty for not filing is in addition to whatever to is owed.
If you’re a US citizen, you need to file once you’re 18 pretty much. If you don’t go to the US, and don’t live in a place with lower taxes, that’s it.
The US has planes and guns. They have invaded many foreign countries and stolen money from banks that didn’t comply with the US laws on KYC/AML in the past
You can, but it’s a pain in the ass.
As long as they spend at least 330 days per 12 month period in non-US countries, they can deduct 130K/y via FEIE, and it adjusts with inflation.
Hope they don’t get a job that keeps them in international waters tho.
That’s in addition to a deduction of taxes they pay in their country.
The US: why is our birth rate so low? Also the US: …
The best way to lower birth rates is free contraception. The birth rate in the US is too high…
Best we can do is get rid of medicade and charge you for murder if you abort or use plan b. Once you are in debtors prison Your baby will then be transferred into a Mossad run sex trafficking and jerky processing operation
Interestingly it is still higher than a lot of European countries which have affordable healthcare
different causes: people are having less kids in the US because they’re living in misery, whereas in europe we’ve long had fewer kids because better education and less need to have 8 kids so one of them survives and can take care of you as you get old.
It’s actually the same in the US. Misery increases the birthrate.
Our birthrate is higher because we traditionally have had a higher immigration rate from countries with higher birthrates.
Yeah in most European countries at least half the kids survived to adulthood now. So if you have four kids at least two of them will survive and that’s all you need to pull the ox
I’m curious, what happens if you just don’t pay? What if you just go back home and never come back?
Honestly if you never go back, not much. It wouldn’t even impact your credit rating, and your country likely doesn’t have the means to enforce it. I could imagine you get harassed by us debt collection agencies but they can’t do anything about it either. If you’re never returning to the US, it’s fine.
You could likely even still holiday in the USA. It won’t impact your visa as it’s not a criminal offence either.
I’m not a lawyer, and could be totally wrong, but I asked my dad who is also not a lawyer.
After 7 years without any payment, most debt including medical debt and standard loans are discharged. The non-payment is key. Even sending a cent will restart the obligation to that debt
If the debt is large enough, the companies will use a myriad of tricks to keep the debt alive long after it is supposed to expire.
Like what?
They will actually make a payment in your name to the account and that will keep the debt alive for at least a year or two.
That would be fraud. I’m sure it happens, and it’s going to be hard to prove it did. This whole system is undoubtedly rotten, and I’m not excusing any part of it.
They are bringing back debtor’s prisons in some states, those debts they sell as unrecoverable are bought by shady companies, as in Utah, that sue for them in the big city, and if the defendant doesn’t show up they get a default judgement and then get the judge to hold them in contempt, and jail them. If they pay they get out right away. After they get out of jail the holder of the debt can just file for another action and contempt you again, as I understand it.
And they aren’t the only state either I hear, they were one of the first to end run around the prohibition, I think case law, on debtor’s prisons, over 10 years back.
Utah still has the firing squad, yeah?
They just brought back that form of execution, and it’s an improvement over lethal injection as it is practiced, or the electrical chair or gas chamber.
Lethal injection could be humane, they choose not to make it so. Nothing would be more humane that a hot shot of opioids and benzodiazapemes and the like. They want them to suffer and use their other formulation that does cause pain even as it makes the person unable to show that pain, as I understand it.
The electrical chair is grotesque, as was the gas chamber as practiced that not only is disturbingly similar to nazi shit, but also operated as with the lethal injections.
So firing squad is much more humane, hanging is humane, guillotine, etc would all be better. Obviously though we can’t trust the system to convict the right people so we shouldn’t have the death penalty. But certain exceptions could exist, for people that would use corrupt influence to get their conviction overturned, cancelled, and do more harm, politically connected people, the super rich.
And yes, shady companies like these, are the perfect recipients of said penalty with due process as they would pay off higher ups to get it cancelled and abuse more people.
TL;DR slavery
This guy is correct. IANAL.
I would say the hospital would sell it to a debt collector in the UK. If it gets to court you could argue incorrect jurisdiction as the contract would have started in the US but that’s risking a lot on a technicality. You would also need to fork out for a solicitor, barrister and court costs. I think they did the right thing in shaming the insurance into paying rather than fighting the debt collector who has no shame.
They can sue, and then try to seize your assets, at least inside the country. Most hospitals don’t, but some do. Garnish your paychecks too. Not sure how that would work in another country.
ICE gonna come to get ya
I doubt any of them have passports and probably couldn’t point to the UK on an atlas, so I think you’d be relatively safe.
I doubt any of them have passports
and do what? Ensure the U.K also denounces the U.S as an ally?
So… that baby is basically came to USA without approval? Should it be detained in the concentration camp or something?
No, it’s white.
They have been murdering white people too
Doesn’t that baby have birthright citizenship, being born in the US?
Maybe if we had the rule of law instead of a Republican dictatorship.
I mean… there’s an injunction on the executive order so for now… but we’ll see how the court case goes… 👀
Yes.
How’s the US still a country, how do people just put up with it.
Around 50 years of near constant propaganda from our media convincing people that the government paying for anything is destructive to the economy and that taxing rich people more that poor people is not fair.
And that Black people will get benefits if we have social programs, and can’t have that.
Military Industrial Complex
Bread and circuses still works.
Hope to die, survive till it happens.
My son was born at 24 weeks. Modern NICUs are an absolute marvel. They took this tiny little guy at the cusp of viability to a healthy, happy, normal baby boy over the next three months.
The pricetag for this treatment was half a million dollars. But, fortunately, we were eligible for Medicaid. A sum that would have bankrupted us was neatly covered by the state.
Except tax payers now get to send their hard earned money directly to the leeches that work at insurance companies.
No matter if the system works out for individuals with insurance Americans get screwed with the way it is at the moment.
You all need to fight for universal health care so that shit isn’t marked up 5000% so that insurances companies make billions for doing nothing but complicate everything
You all need to fight for universal health care
We’ve been fighting for over a century. It’s a horrifying monster that’s only grown bigger and stronger over time.
Closest anyone has come to slaying the beast is Luigi Mangione and look what happened to him.
private insurance is heavily subsidized by OUR TAXES anyways, but is unvailable or extremely inaccessible to most people. propaganda has convinced the right more than the left that private insurance results in “faster time, appts and guaranteed care” but it does not appear to be in most cases, because insurance can easily nitpick dim/nickle everything of your care(multiple tests, each doctor appointment, what the doctor is doing, who is reading your results,etc)
I was born at 28 weeks 5 decades ago.
$0 .
Very fortunate
I’ve been through both experiences with medicaid for one birth and insurance for another which needed NICU support (fucking huge shout-out to the awesome hospital staff that was supportive through it all). The vast differences of the experience is just mind numbing and the stress is through the roof trying to get around all the billing and headaches. I’ve thought of doing a write-up to share the experience but it’s just so much I feel like it would be a whole side project trying to document the whole ordeal over months of anguish.
40% of US babies are born on medicad and the BBB just stripped it completely
