transcript
Screenshot of a tweet by @feralhousepuppy: hey so you’ve been calling me “bro”, “man”, and “dude” a lot and it’s really invalidating to my masculinity cause those are all gender neutral things you call trans women :/
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Gender-neutral-“dude” is like peanuts
Usually fine, but some people are more sensitive to it, to the point where it could seriously hurt them. Best avoided around new people until you know it’s safe for them.
Ya know, I can dig this take
if you wouldn’t be thrilled to be called dudette maybe don’t call people dude without knowing they are cool with it, same with being called sis for bro
also consider that if you are a cis guy being called something you don’t really align with can be a fun novelty as a rare thing but as a woman being referred to with male default language /all/ the time by mostly men becomes eventually pretty grating (and having to either put up with the mild annoyance every time or having to speak up and have it be a “thing” with every new guy calling you dude or bro is just irritating in the way a refrigerator making a quiet but annoying whining buzz all the time might be.)
Ah, I knew me mimicking my English vocabulary on a British Geordie will one day come in handy.
I call people “pet” or “flower” :P
Never heard anyone use bro, man or dude; I think its not used by people outside USA lango-sphere.
This discussion always centers around whether or not these are gender neutral terms in general. It always leaves out the fact that there are people who only use these terms for men and trans women.
The stoner who uses “dude” or “man” all the time, the leabian, I see them use it for cis women constantly, we have no problems. The bro bro who absolutely does not call cis women “dude” or “man”, can fuck all they way off to the 7th jockstrap of hell.
THANK YOU. i felt like i was losing my mind seeing everyone else miss the point lol
If you call a trans woman any of these things you are morally and legally obligated to give her $20 each time.
Fun fact: women tend to use dude differently to men. Causes quite a bit of distress to trans women until they work out the code. Guys use it as demonstrated above. Women use it more like a (non antagonist) mate. It’s a gender neutral attention getter, softener and show of camaraderie
No not really. Most women I know use dude exclusively to refer to men and maybe more masc presenting NBs.
I think these things are generally pretty regional.
In California both dude and bruh have become non-gendered to the young. It’s odd to listen to.
Am AFAB, can confirm. The whole argument over “dude,” for example, has been difficult for me to adjust to because I use it gender-neutrally all the time. I’ve never had a cis-woman complain about me using it with/around them; no cis-woman has ever gotten offended or said to me, “I’m not a dude, I’m a woman,” or anything of the sort. It’s just … understood differently?
But if there’s a different usage pattern among AMABs, I can see how they might feel differently about it. Truth is, if I’m calling you “dude,” it means you’re cool with me - it’s a gender-neutral term of endearment among women, having absolutely zero to do with one’s gender or sex.
Most cis women I’ve met don’t like being called dude. This isn’t an amab/agab thing. This is a thing where women like myself are asking people respectfully to stop calling us masculine terms
For sure, if I met a woman who told me she didn’t like being called “dude,” I’d keep that in mind for her. I’m not doubting that some people can feel that way, I’m just saying that I haven’t encountered that from anyone I’ve used the term with. Now I wonder if there’s a regional or demographic difference…
Cis male here and I didn’t know your way of using it wasn’t the default tbh. Unless used directly as “you’re a dude” for example, that word has no implied fender to me. “Dude wtf” is gender neutral.
I’m not a native speaker though, I grew up on video games, forums and later reddit, so for the first decade and a half, whenever I used English, I often didn’t know other people’s genders anyway.
Ah I think that explains my confusion. I’m a man, but I first learned English from my Australian cousins, both early teen girls at the time. They used dude in their female friend groups. So I didn’t really learn to understand the term as gendered.
Only later I came across situations where it’s used with a certain gendered emphasis, like: “No, you don’t understand, I’m into dudes!”
That makes sense. I’m from the US, but that’s precisely how the word evolved for me. I grew up with boys, in the 90s, when shows like TMNT and The Simpsons had the word “dude” as a common expression of surprise, or as a catch-all term for “cool person.”
Sure, sometimes people said “dudette” to refer to cool girls, but it never seemed common. Besides, I always found that word kinda cringe, similar to how I feel about other unnecessarily-gendered terms, like “lady doctor.” “Dude” was always for everyone, a word of true agendered acceptance. Which makes the way some people seem determined to hammer it into the “men and boys only” category feel really … limiting? Suffocating? Like a step backwards?
Although I feel for those who can only see it as masculine, and I don’t mean to dismiss their concerns, but if there’s already an agendered reclamation in the works, wouldn’t it make sense to continue that? Instead of doubling-down on its gendered gate-keeping? It doesn’t mean you have to personally use the word, but to tell the rest of us that this beautiful, gender-free word must be confined to a gender role, well, doesn’t that just reinforce the binary?
Think about it. Once upon a time, calling someone an “aviator” or a “poet” implied masculinity (with the feminine versions being “aviatrix” and “poetess,” respectively.) Imagine the first time a woman was called an “aviator.” Was she insulted? Maybe. Did she object to it? Also maybe. But if she did and her way had won out, do you really think an “aviator” and an “aviatrix” would be considered equal today? By the way some people react to female pilots, I think it’s fair to say they wouldn’t be. I’m glad the separately-gendered term died off, it did nothing but make women seem like the non-standard, a “different” that must be labeled as such.
With all that considered, why would we ever want to limit “dude” just to men and boys? The closest feminine term we could use is “dudette,” and if we’re going to force ourselves to be “dudettes” then I guess we might as well be aviatrices, poetesses, and lady doctors as well.
Because how dare we let an evolving word, in this ever-moving fluid that is the English language, come to find peace in its burgeoning gender-neutrality.
Fun fact, if you use friendly/camaraderie language when you ain’t my friend or comrade I think you’re fake and you call me words I don’t like I’m certainly not your friend.
There’s also a difference between masculine default and gender neutral.
I’m so sick of fake friendliness. I’m so sick of masculine default. I’m so fucking sick of people being disrespectful to the person in front of them, and acting like I’m the rude one for saying “Oh, please don’t…”
Black men called each other brother and man because white men called them boy, white boys started calling everyone man (and dude and bro) in escalation, then women took it up as a reclamation.
Calling a girl dude is still patriarchy and misgendering; how somebody receives your words is more important than your obscure use case and it shouldn’t be a reach to just not.
I really wish inheritantly masculine words weren’t always ending up the “gender neutral” defaults.
I can’t help but feel like ever since being out over the last 2 years, friends are calling me “man” or “dude” in a neutral sense way more often than they ever did before despite them being supportive and it just feels too me like petting a cat in the wrong direction. I know I need to be more vocal in it making me uncomfortable but I’ve always tried to avoid confrontation so it’s hard
I feel very similarly about those who use the word “gay” to refer to the entire Queer community.
It wasn’t until I started really participating in the queer community that I realized why the term dude bothered me, and then my eyes were fully opened to the patriarchy.
Ever since then I only use the word when arguing with cis white men.
I used to work with some proper manly-men; ex military, oil rig workers, lumber jacks etc. You get the picture.
The amount of times people get called “babe” and “sweet cheeks” etc. was dizzying - as was the constant vague alluding to the wanting of doing horrifically outlandish sexual stuff to each other.
Weird, but fun, vibe all around.
Did you work in the gay steel mill from the Simpsons?
thats just all the steel mills
Please trust when I say it’s exceedingly normal in blue collar. Also, everyone doing those jokes is highly homophobic
I’m white collar and we make those jokes all the time
Not that I remember… which I assume I would.
Me again.
Just looked that up on the ‘tube. Lol.
It weren’t nothing like that; we had a far far lower moustache per man ratio.
It’s just dudes who are secure in their sexuality and masculinity. It’s the insecure ones ruining it for everyone.
Can’t upvote this enough.
Isn’t the “alluding of wanting sexual stuff” just homophobia? Was anyone of them actually gay? Would they accept an openly gay person in their manly group? For me it sounds like “guys, look, I’m gay! how degrading and self-deprecating of me. can you imagine anyone here actually being gay? hilarious!”. I heard the same things from military friends and they are the most right-wing people I know. I have hard time believing their “gay jokes” are just innocent teasing. But I don’t know, maybe?
Yeah - I hear what you’re saying but it was probably closer to “gay chicken” rather than anything else.
You’d bend down for the hundredth time that day to pick up something and you just hear a distant “mmmhmm” or an “oh yeah, baby”
One guy, if I hadn’t worked with him for a while, used to hug me, sniff me aggressively and then, whilst maintaining eye contact, tell me that he’d missed my smell. And then kiss me on the forehead.
One (openly) gay guy worked, tangentially, with us and came to a works do one year. He declared, in the first pub, that he was gonna turn one of us before the end of the night. I’m not sure if he succeeded… but he stayed the course of the night and seemed to enjoy himself.
Machismo is evolving. Slowly, but its happening!
i fucking hate being called bro (ignore my username its outdated)
I’m pretty sure you can change your display name on Lemmy.
update: using another client (jerboa) i managed to do it
my instance doesnt let me but it might be a bug
Not all clients support it tho :(
you can change how your display name is presented, it doesn’t have to be your username.
If you’re me, you can say, “sup, y’all”
For more context, this works when greeting one person or a group. If you need to specify that you’re addressing the group, the plural of “y’all” is “all y’all”.
If you’re me, you can say, “sup, y’all”
southern privilage of having informal plural “you”
Listen up my hoopy froods, when settling on inclusive gender neutral terms don’t forget your towel
I really wish there was a word that was as useful as “dude” but without the gender connotation.
I tried swapping to “fam” and “cuz” but those felt appropriated, I tried “gamer” and “chat” but those felt irony-poisoned, “Sis” and “girl” feel performative. So “dude” it shall be until someone tells me it’s bad, and then they get no objective article at all.
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Comrade?
I think the australians have this figured out with “mate”
And cunt 😁😅
Nah, mate is as gendered as dude. Like sure some woman won’t mind, but it’s mostly men being called mate by other men.
No straight man is going to be like “I had sex with my mate” when talking about say a fwb.
Nah, women can easily be mates, it’s not a gendered term at all any more.
It really is, and that’s the same argument people make for “dude”.
been using “m8” for too long, that I don’t think I’m call’em “benefits.” @That point: “tis my partner[s]” or “oh em? that’s ma spotter/coach.”
Mate doesn’t pluralise well though, ‘I’m going out with my mates’ is fine but ‘hi mates’ sounds wrong. Also a lot of it is in the delivery, calling someone ‘mate’ can be anything from friendly to neutral to hostile depending on the tone and the words which precede it.
Of course “Hi mates!” feels wrong, it needs to be either “g’day mates” or “ahoy mateys” or “oy mates”…
Sorry.
Btw. you have the same “problem” (imho, feature) of tone determining level of friendliness with dude, dude. And partly even with bro, though bro feels harder to turn unfriendly when adressing someone.
For me, “Hi mates” or “oy mates” sounds completely okay, but I’m a non-native speaker.
I mean the golden rule with how you speak about people is really just to listen to what people tell you about what makes them feel respected
So feel free to use dude gender neutrally if thats how you speak, and if someone says they don’t feel good in it, stop. If youre worried it might not feel great for someone you can always just say you’re used to using it gender neutrally and ask 🤷🏻♂️
I mentioned “cat” elsewhere but this morning I remember Mr. Rogers called us all “neighbor” and I think it could work.
just gonna end up sounding like ned flanders. Not the worst thing to come of as tho, if you look past the religous dogma. Always friendly, and he has a great ass
“cunt” kinda works
personally a fan of comrade, friend or pal.
but i also really kinda do use guy and dude gender neutrally. Accidentally have called everyone i know dude at some point. P sure i called my mom dude several timea.
but also aware some people dont like that so i makr a point of asking if know/suspect theyve a non cis gender identity, or correct as needed if asked.
people only really take it badly if its the first time meeting and theres doubt to ones priorities. People are generally very forgiving if you establish intent and willingness to respect each other in my experience
I don’t like dude as gender neutral and don’t think I ever will. I’ll stick with “fam,” “friend,” and “homie” (then again, I am Hispanic, so that might not work for everyone)
“dude” always felt gender neutral to me (though do note English is my fourth language…).
And if you look at the etymology of the word, gender neutrality makes some sense.
It started out as slang in the late 1800s mocking “hyper-fashionable young urban men”.
Then the early 20th century it transformed to describe tourists from the East Coast on the Western side of the country (see “dude ranches”).
And then in the 60-70s it transformed thanks to surfer slang, back to being male oriented.
I’d say if you’re uncomfortable with the “dude” form of the term… use “dood” instead. Or even “d00d” if you’re feeling l33t h4xx0r.
“dude” always felt gender neutral to me
You will find out how gender neural “dude” really is when you ask a guy how many dudes he has banged.
So in your examples, it went from making fun of a type of men, to referring to the overwhelmingly-male owners of hobby ranches, to referring to male surfers.
When exactly was it ever gender neutral?
No…
You got the second part wrong. It wasn’t the “overwhelmingly male owners of hobby ranches” that were called dudes, but, if you read my comment again, you’ll notice I specifically said the UNGENDERED tourists hailing from the east coast - primarily city folk - visiting rural western areas, ranches.
The 80s and 90s skater culture. We’re all dudes https://youtu.be/iKYXmjfQY4U
Gendered terms actually very often have really weird etymologies. You’d be surprised how many words for women used to refer to children of any gender (which could be a whole discussion by itself).
Dudette! Though I honestly stick with dude, i use dudette only if it bothers them;
Tovarășe! Să trăiți!
let’s go for: hello beings
I too am entering the conversation. Hello fellow resident of Earth.
hello dear feathercrown being, user of the earthwide digital interwebs, you hereby might feel officially welcomed
I full use hello beings when my brain is unsure what to call everyone. I also like all y’all.
I prefer homie
“howdy folks 🤠”
just say “baby”.
bae 2
hmm i can see it but that one would be more difficult to read when you aren’t used to it.
when saying it. it’s a very open-mouthed sound so peeps will probably think they didn’t understand you right, while
babyhas a rather distinct and complete-feeling kinda sound i think.EDIT: it would sound nice tho once peeps know you use that sound-word for everyone >v<
ya, “bae” in very district.
Thanks, baby! :D
hmnawawwaw---- yea see, like, that works maybe and when it does it usually makes the recipient excited which is a wonderful bonus ~
Always thought mate was fantastic but it sounds weird when Americans use it
Well, I’m Canadian, but I assure you it doesn’t sound any better coming from us.
America should refer to the continent anyway
add.:
- buddy/bub
- homeslice
- boo
- yo
- heya
- yosh
I like folks but it’s pleural so only works for groups.
Folks is plural, neighbor.
Pleural refers to the lungs and the space that holds them, like “pleural effusions” and “pleurisy.”
Damn autocorrect. Ta.
Dude actually is gender neutral
Source: I am a legally ordained priest of the Church of Dudeism. Not sarcasm.
“what up cuh”
Me omw to commit auditory blackface to avoid using a mostly gender-neutral term gender neutrally
Imo new words should be created for these things. Like how about
zude?
“Guys” and “dude” are gender neutral in my book.
Ask a straight man if he fucks guys or dudes and see how gender neutral those terms are
“Dude” is a hill I’ll die on. We already tried “dudette” in the 80s/90s. It was pretty universally hated. Dude was established as the preferred gender neutral term in the late 90s/early 00s at the great council of high school students.
In Spanish we just say “you”. It’s really terrible in Arabic where you have feminine and masculine “you”.
It’s really terrible in Arabic where you have feminine and masculine “you”.
Apparently some Arabic-speaking enbys use the dual form أنتما but as most dialects have lost dual inflections, that’s not really practical in day-to-day speech.
And then gender every other word.
Hack Túo o Hack Túa?
I subscribe to the good burger use of dude.
yeah no “dudette” is an abomination of linguistics and I refuse to entertain it, and anyone who does should be met with derision.
We are all dudes on this blursed world. 🙏
It’s odd that the gender “neutral” terms are always the masculine ones
It’s deliberate, for all the same reasons across all of history.
It’s why I use terms that (I assume) are genuinely like “folks” and “peeps” and “comrade” etc.
Become ungovernable.
Make all words genderless.
Call men “chika”.
Call women “brother”.
Call your girl cat “bubba”
Call your boy cat “pretty kitty”
No gender = no gender conformity = better world
omg this is pretty cool
I’m sorry but I HATE folks. I’m down with virtually all other gender neutral terms, but I psychologically can’t uncouple ‘folks’ from pseudo-homespun charm put on by people who are sleazebags for various reasons. Anything but folks, I beg (general) you
I use folks all the time!
…but i’m also a server at waffle house, so I guess I am using southern culture and folksy charm to sell you waffles and coffee. It’s a soulless existence, I know, but at least I have my cold, hard cash tips to keep me warm at night.
Neighbor?
I use the word folks regularly :(
That makes me sad
Don’t let one person’s pet peeves determine your language, even if they’re my pet peeves!
It makes me sad that it made you sad so to correct this I’ll go out of my way to use folks from time to time
Yay
I just hear the word in Davey’s voice from Adventure Time and it has completely taken the term over. I can’t even say folks without impersonating Davey anymore.
I love “folks”! It makes me think of folklore and looney tunes.
It comes from the German “volks” (literally “people”), so I just think of it like that. “What’s up people?” doesn’t sound strange, does it?
Well no, it doesn’t, because it’s a different word. Plenty of words have similar meanings or origins while having very different connotations from each other. See for example the whole [saxon? norman? whatever] vs french root thing in english, where words with identical meanings but different root languages came to have different connotations (worker vs laborer) or even different meanings (cow vs beef).
So what is the distinction? You went on for a while there and kinda forgot that part.
Another example: cavalier vs caballero. Cavalier comes from the French word for knight, and that’s caballero in Spanish, but the meaning is completely different. One is arrogant, one is noble (the good kind, yeah I do get how they are related and where and why the meanings shifted).
Another fine word ruined by the US.
I only use it to refer to my “parents” cuz saying parents otherwise makes me feel like I’m in grade school again or some shit. Otherwise to refer to others as folks feels weird to me.
Don’t forget “cats”
Everybody wants to be a cat 🎶
Oh cool cats, I dig it. That’s cool.
Sorry liberals, there are only two genders: CATS and DOGS
Pussies and bitches!?!?
I think using “deliberate” to refer to something that’s as collective and reactive as societal trends in language usage is misleading. The amount of personal agency involved, except in rare cases of people intentionally trying to cause a cultural shift, is pretty minimal.
Also you got me curious-- “peeps” comes directly from “people” as you might expect, and “folks” and “comrade” actually originally originate as terms referring to (among other usages) military groups. So I would say they are indeed gender-neutral, even in origin, unless you count gendered expectations of the military which I’m not sure carried over to later, more general usages.
I actually spent a few minutes trying to think of a better word than “deliberate” but couldn’t, “not accidental” might have been a better choice.
Ah okay. I do get your point, the trend is clear.
Pretty common in a lot of “gendered” languages actually.
Certainly the case in every language English is related to
It’s weird when we feminise a word like dude (that didn’t have gender and wasn’t about people) by adding a diminutive suffix.
I would say dude wasn’t gendered until dudette was coined, and probably isn’t gendered where dudette doesn’t have currency
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The one that gets me is ‘bud’ I had a roommate that would all ways say things like ‘yeah bud. that’s because ****’ when explaining anything and I had to put a firm stop to it. It was so patronizing.
You’re not a bud. You’re fully bloomed.
Were they from Maine or Michigan by any chance?
Kansas
I like bud, but don’t like being patronized.
Makes me think of the, “I’m not your pal, buddy!” Canadians skit from South Park
i like being called bud cuz it makes me feel small.
