For me, that’s the différence between a nationalist and a patriot: the nationalist thinks their country is the best, the patriot wants the best for their country. A patriot will see the flaws in the system and will try to correct them for the benefit of the community. A patriot will be happy when other people will want to join the community to make it better, or to change it. A patriot is happy when the community evolves, and will work for it. A patriot can be a foreigner initially. Doesn’t change anything. The nationalist cannot accept change. Therefore, they don’t accept anything that can make their community evolve. They don’t realize their country changed in the past, they idealize a vision completely unbalanced of history and cannot see the flaws in the system.
Unfortunately today, the patriot is a nuisance and the nationalist a useful tool for the nefarious people which wants just more power and more money.
It’s easy to sell something to someone who thinks nothing should change, it’s hard to contempt someone who wants to change a system.
People will apply this to something like gay pride, black pride, etc. But those forms of pride are about standing in opposition to prejudice, oppression, and hardship, where the inherent aspects of your existence are demonized, stereotyped, or seen as lesser. The pride is in making it through the world and accepting/celebrating yourself despite all the hate and dangers others force onto you.
Having pride in being part of a marginalized group isnt about feeling superior to other groups. It is about rebelling against those who feel themselves superior to you.
When people have nothing to be proud of they will take anything they can get
I agree with this 100© but Netanyahu would call this line of thinking anti-Semitism
And I call him a cunt
Along with anybody who thinks an invisible sky-daddy has “chosen” them
Understanding nationalism from a left perspective requires that we understand what a nation is. In Marxist theory, a nation is a “historically constituted, stable community of people, formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life, and psychological make-up manifested in a common culture.” Nationalist movements are therefore struggles for sovereignty. Nationalism must be understood from its relation as a nation. Nationalism of oppressor nations and nationalism of oppressed nations are both struggles for sovereignty, the core difference being that oppressor nations have already gained the ability to determine their own future, and this progressive movement turns into its opposite, supremacy.
This is why we can say that the nationalist movements in Palestine, Ireland, indigenous Americans, and so forth are undoubtedly progressive in gaining that right to self-determination. This is also why we can say that Euro-American nationalism is a supremacist ideology. This is why nationalism can be difficult to understand in relation to internationalism, but the simple truth is that an internationalist stance requires the right of self-determination for all nations. This is the bedrock of internationalism and a greater international human identity. It isn’t an erasure of culture and national identity, but a celebration of all of them.
TL;DR: nationalist movements in oppressed nations like Palestine good, nationalist movements in oppressor nations like the US bad.
This is true but it also makes sense why youwould wanna be patriotic(not nationalistic, important distinction). Youre born somewhere, and you dont have a choice in that, but you still grow up with people arround you who have a certain culture, who raise you, who youre freinds with. You can associate with them and try to improve your community without pushing down others. I think this is the concept patriotism is based on. Also i never get these posts, do these people truly not understand how a racist, or a nationalists mind works? The same way you should be able to put yourself into the shoes of someone recieving hate, you should be able to see from the perepective of the one hating on others. I guess that explains why there are so many asinine approaches to politics from both sides. Dont get me wrong, i hate the right, but the reason theyre outplaying us is because they can see from our perspectives better than we can see from theirs, which is very dissapointing when we should be the empathetic left. Something might not make sense but you should still understand how someone gets to that conclusion, especially since i have a pretty big problem with this specific qoute. Two of these groups, irish and italian, have recieved a lot of discrimination. Wouldnt you be proud of who you are if they discriminated against you, wouldnt you fight back? Its the same with being queer, its not a choice, thats exactly what were trying to communicate to the right, yet you have pride for the exact same reason italian and irish americans have pride, to show you are here. This qoute is basically this guys sufferring, or hate or something similar packaged in a way that makes it look smart instead. And im not blaming the guy, something drove him to react this way.
Ahh, after reading hes irish american. See? He shouldnt be pride to be born irish, instead be proud of his people and himself for going through discrimination. Today this is much less of a thing but being born in 1937 couldnt have been easy in an irish immigrant family. Theres always more to the story is all im saying. Nuance, you know.
I don’t really get the “being proud of our history” part. Some other people did it and it’s not your achievement in any way. But I do get enjoying your rich historical and cultural heritage in the form of museums, archeological sites and cultural events.
For example, as a dual national, I never liked the polish Christian traditions which are all about martyrology and are mostly sad and boring but I do enjoy Spanish traditions which are mostly about just having fan. Spain also has richer history with traditions, language and cuisine spanning way more different cultures. I wouldn’t say I’m proud of it but I do enjoy it.
I do enjoy Spanish traditions which are mostly about just having fan.
Fun or flan or both?
This is such neoliberal nonsense. I feel for you USians but to just attack the struggle for Irish independence is not the way to go. Please read a history book.
If you’ve done nothing for it, why are you personally proud of it?
It’s the people who fought for Irish Independence who should be proud, very proud, of it, not some rando who shares with them nothing other than, purely by chance, having been born in the geographical area others freed from the British yoke, and a rando who for all we know if they had been born back then would’ve sided with the Brits.
Be proud of what you’re doing now, not what totally different people did way back then. If you have no reasons to be proud of your own deeds, well then, that’s on you.
In the country I was born in, the most loud celebrations of past national glories were done during the time of the Fascist dictatorship, when the country was such a poor shithole that it even got Food Aid from the rest of Europe. Interestingly, after the Revolution that brought Democracy, that stuff was seriously toned down.
National Pride is a scam to keep the plebes supporting whomever is in power now, long after the people that did the great deeds are dead and buried, as if the present day elites pillaging the leftover wealth of greater days when greater people built the country up are in any way, form or shape similar to those in power when the great deeds were done - Britain with their Empire and WWII obsessions is a great example of that.
I’m ashamed that my country 🇳🇱 just gave up and allowed the Nazis in. I’m proud that my country has succeeded in adding very progressive policies for poverty, work conditions, that pride can also be a source for inspiration.
The neoliberal movement of only thinking about one’s own actions and interests has gutted many social institutions and protections in my country.
I lived in The Netherlands for almost a decade (kan selfs nederlands spreeken)
There has been little to be proud of for the country in the last 2 decades or so - it has actually been going back in the good things it had.
Plenty of Dutch people still alive do have reason to be proud in what they did for the country 50 years ago or so, and I guess even today most should be proud on how Dutch culture is right now (most notably it’s openness and tolerance), because they ARE part of making it what it is everyday, yet in lots of things (Economics, Wealth Discrimination, Fairness even the Openness and Tolerance) as far as I can tell of late the place has just been going backwards, which is nothing to be proud of.
More broadly and as I mentioned before, in my experience National Pride is mainly used to suppress pressure on the governing elites to improve the country, which is why the Fascist dictator in my homeland - Portugal - was so incredibly big on celebrating great things that were done by completely different people 500 years ago.
My experience living in Britain is pretty similar - the very people fucking up the country by mismanaging it like crazy (most notably with Brexit) were the ones most loudly proud of the Empire and Britain’s role in WWII.
And, no, I’m not proud of my homeland, Portugal.
it’s tribalism, and I hate to say it because people throw this phrase around too much but I genuinely believe it’s low IQ behavior
Divide and conquer is one of the oldest tricks rulers use. the people cant stand up to you if they hate each other.
It is
It’s very easy to see who clings to this sort of shit
It’s people who have achieved nothing of actual value
I also want to emphasize that I don’t mean “community tribalism” as in social support groups, but more so “them vs us” world view, the exclusiveness aspect
This is why I’m always confused when people get upset with me for not being “patriotic” or whatever. The state and country I’m born in is just dirt surrounded by water. I could not care less about it. It’s just where my mom plopped me out at. Everything else is arbitrary nonsense.
I still cringe when people still seem to hold onto some notion that America is the greatest thing ever. I’m not even talking about MAGA. Like people foolishly still believe a war mongering state like the US should forever be known as the greatest thing ever. Like legit. In their eyes, no other country has come close and no other country does anything just as good. The US is the only leader in anything in their eyes. They make it so dramatic about how much pride they have in the country when they’ve been fed propaganda all their lives. lmao
To them I say, it’s not about U.S. vs the rest of the world. It’s about us, the people, against the corrupt and the state. Like John Lennon says, “no country to die for”. It’s just about people man. Fuck the state. Fuck your borders bullshit.
It’s really cringe and almost everyone does it. Most speeches at the start of an election campaign begin this way, also for liberals. When K. Harris said “We’re America and we’re the only country, where I, a black woman ™, could ever run for office…”
Like, look around. There are women, black people, and black women in office right now around the world. And that’s coming from the more “” “” left “” “” side.
And yet yanks still say “I’m Scottish”, when their great, great, great grandmother was born in Scotland
It’s pathetic
I agree with this, but I think we should have some kind of linguistic distinction between pride as in ‘I’m proud I’m not one of those inferior people’ and pride as in ‘I am not ashamed of my heritage’. Because having one word being used both ways has led to people with wildly diverging interpretations of the same sentence.
Yeah, a monosyllabic word for “I didn’t earn this, but I want to make it clear it’s not something to be ashamed of either” would be pretty dope.
This is why I prefer the word “celebrate”. I didn’t do anything to achieve neurodivergence, it’s not an accomplishment, so why would I be proud of it? But I can be proud of the times when I can push past the executive dysfunction and actually tidy my room.
But I can surely celebrate neurodivergence.
But that’s just me. I don’t mind if other people want to shout “autistic pride”. I used to get accused of being “proud” and “arrogant” a lot by a family member when I was mute or in shutdown, so that might be why I feel an aversion to that word.
Why do you want to hold a celebration?
Because we’re proud. Oh, dangit…
I didn’t even consider the first one to exist and was briefly upset at George for saying people shouldn’t be proud/accepting of their base characteristics, but what you say makes sense of it for me.
A potentially mind-blowing thing that really drives this point home:
Obama is half-black and half-white (black father and white mother). He’s often and comfortably claimed to be the first black president, but never referred to as a white president, though he’s equally both.
Some races and ethnicities have historically been considered as subtractive, and this is the often unconsidered evil of ethnic or cultural allegiance.
This is because the American slave owners wanted to be able to sell their own children.
After raping a slave, if she got pregnant they could free their child or keep them as a slave.
Thomas Jefferson’s concubine, Sally Hemmings, was probably 3/4 white, and at least 1/2 white. Her granddaughter created a scandal when she ‘passed’ for white.
If an american tries to call themselves Native because they are 1/32 Native, people laugh at them. But up until a few years ago, being 1/64 Black made you Black.
Logically it still made sense, IMO. If he’s half black and half white, while all previous presidents were only white, then the black part is the discriminating factor one could highlight as a success to deviate from the previous norm.
If you wanted to highlight this deviation without leaning in on the black part, you would have had to use something like “not fully white”, which would have been explicitly subtractive and therefore much worse.
Of course one could simply ignore the skin color completely, but I also see empowering in highlighting this shift of breaking an otherwise strict all white run.
That’s actually what left-wing nationalism is often about (But not always, sometimes it is economical left-populists trying to cope) Also I dont think we need anyone to tell how to relate to others. In a healthy(!) society people can sort themselves out without need to be controlled by some multi-culturalist enforcement (because idea of multiculturalism is kinda impossible)
How is ‘multiculturalism’ impossible? Try spending a day in any big city. People use words from different languages all the time. They use chopsticks and European table ware at the same meal.
You don’t even need to go to a big city. Look at the All American cowboy. Pretty much everything you associate with him comes from Mexico. His lariat comes from ‘la riata’ and his Stetson was based on a sombrero.
I mean I do agree, and particularly as an immigrant myself, I’d be crazy not to…
But I’m not sure it’s pride that’s the problem per se - it’s the automatic and non-negotiable nature of it that bothers me. I mean I’m proud to live in a society that, for all its flaws, values universal healthcare more than the right to shoot each other or the right to shout nazi slurs - I think that’s something that shows what we can achieve as people and it’s nice to be proud of it.
But when we elect some right-wing fucktard who tries to undo it all - then I will be ashamed. My pride is not eternal, unearned or unquestioning.
It’s the whole shagging the flag and belting out the national anthem every morning in school, and “our military are all heroes even when they’re committing war crimes”, that I find really sinister.
It’s the last thing you can be proud of, if you have nothing else.
You think I should be proud more of having a hairy ass?
That can at least keep you warm and shows people from far away that you’re likely an adult man. Two things a hairy ass can do that ethnicity can’t.
But ass hair has never taught me a recipe…
shows people from far away that you’re likely an adult man.
My ass isn’t that big for people from far away to notice its hairiness :)
Proof, if any were needed, that you really can’t win 'em all
How can we evaluate whether you should be proud of it if you don’t even post pics?
Logic, my hairy ass craving friend. Just use logic. If nationality is the last thing to be proud of then any other characteristic (ass including) has higher priority.
While i agree, many people are proud of their genetics, or their team, or or or
