The ritual is done at least 20 times, with months or years between each session, taking 10 to 30 minutes. The ones that pass through it all are accepted as warriors and future leaders
https://pib.socioambiental.org/en/Povo:Sateré_Mawé
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mawé_people
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraponera_clavata (bullet ant)
That’s really not what u/unknownuserunknownlocation@kbin.earth is saying or the point they are making, which is a fair one. Kicking it out of way by waving a big “cultural relativism” sign doesn’t do anything to address it.
If one was so inclined, one could even argue that whole idea that an 11 year old indigenous boy is somehow more grown up and “a man” is essentially the same as the racist outlook that considers black boys to no longer be kids but dangerous men when they get closer to their teens.
Indigenous people, living immersed in the natural world, deciding that an 11 year old is old enough to decide on their own start a journey into adulthood while surrounded by adults who care deeply for them,
Is absolutely nothing like a racist white person deciding that an 11 year old black child should be ripped from their family and treated as an adult against their will.
That’s such an insane comparison that your intentions come into severe question.
If you don’t see how there’s a similarity in the othering of non-white boys leading to consider them to be grown up earlier, I think you might be falling prey to some racist bias yourself.
I’m all for taking context into consideration but biology doesn’t care about cultural relativism, an 11 year old human boy can’t make fully-informed decisions. That was the point being made and the point stands.
It has nothing to do with cultural relativism and everything to do with who is doing the considering and why. Gtfo with that racist bias shit, while comparing indigenous rituals to one of the most odious crimes of “post slavery” american racism.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Many people do fucked up things to others believing it’s in their best interest. Still doesn’t excuse it.
unknownuser’s argument is that the boy couldn’t consent because he’d be surrounded by people telling him that the only way to be a leader is to take the ritual. The quote, verbatim:
If that’s all it takes to remove consent, then we might as well isolate every children from other people.
I sincerely doubt anyone in the group would be telling him “you should totally do it! It’ll be awesome!”, but rather that he better think twice before doing it and what to expect in the immediate aftermath of the ritual, not in a “you might feel” but in a “you will feel” way, because those stings are no joke. I wouldn’t be surprised if the boy even went so far as to take a single sting sometime before the ritual just to know how deep in shit he’d be.
Oor, hear me out, ideas around morality and consent in the more nuanced-filled space of what would be considered psychological damage versus mental training are undoubtedly biased by the way any observer is raised and so impossible to claim that they can have absolute moral judgments placed on them without taking cultural relativism into account.
They made the big bold claims and moral accusations first.
You shouldn’t convince kids to torture themselves, and"the way they were raised" is no excuse. Bold statement, I know.
Hm, or maybe you should allow them to partake in mental training because it could help them overcome challenges more efficiently in the future, making the trade-off worthwhile. I know the ideas of conditioning and building tolerance might be foreign to you, but they’re not foreign to everyone. This isn’t settled science or anything, so for the moment you might have to take a seat down from your high horse and accept the possibility of alternate views existing with plausible arguments behind them.
I feel some very strong projection vibes here. Also, conditioning yourself to pain doesn’t work by going from zero to one of the most painful things known to man.
I mean, there were (are?) Alternative cultures that see pedophilia favorably. I’m not exactly about to warm up to that, either.
Omg not the vibes - oh my lord, a whole zero!?! To sixty?!! 😦
Dial 911 and ask to speak to the president.