- cross-posted to:
- hackernews@lemmy.bestiver.se
- cross-posted to:
- hackernews@lemmy.bestiver.se
“It’s safe to say that the people who volunteered to “shape” the initiative want it dead and buried. Of the 52 responses at the time of writing, all rejected the idea and asked Mozilla to stop shoving AI features into Firefox.”
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Hey all, just a reminder to keep the community rules in mind when commenting on this thread. Criticism in any direction is fine, but please maintain your civility and don’t stoop to ad-hominem etc. Thanks.
don’t stoop to ad-hominem
At this point Ad-hominem is practically the nice name for the business model “enshitification”.
deleted by creator
If it can be proven that an LLM bot account is present on the instance masquerading as a human user, I would recommend you report the account for that reason/spam so that it can be investigated and removed per instance rule 4 after evidence is found.
Since they aren’t people, I’d say it’s pointless to reply to them with ad-hominem in the first place since it means nothing to them, and therefore reporting it would be the more effective action to take in any event.
It depends. If it’s just for the sake of plugging AI because it’s cool and trendy, fuck no.
If it’s to improve privacy, accessibility and minimize our dependency on big tech, then I think it’s a good idea.
A good example of AI in Firefox is the Translate feature (Project Bergamot). It works entirely locally, but relies on trained models to provide translation on-demand, without having Google, etc as the middle-man, and Mozilla has no idea what you translates, just which language model(s) you downloaded.
Another example is local alt-text generation for images, which also requires a trained model. Again, works entirely locally, and provide some accessibility to users with a vision impairment when an image doesn’t provide caption.
Totally agree. Just because generally AI is bad and used in stupid ways, it doesn’t mean that all AI is useless or without meaning. Clearly if you look at the trends, people are using chatbots as search engines. This is not Mozilla forcing anything on us, we are doing this. At that point I much prefer them to develop a system that lets us use gpts to surf the web in the most convenient and private way possible. So far I have been very happy with how Mozilla has implemented AI in Firefox. I don’t feel the bloat, it is not shoved in my face, and it is under my control. We don’t have to make it a witch hunt. Not everything is either horrible or beautiful.
When I want AI, I use this: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=DuckDuckGo+AI+Chat&ia=chat&duckai=1
My worry about AI built into my browser is that it’ll be turned into data mining, training, and revenue generation resulting in exploitation and manipulation of me.
My worry about AI built into my browser is that it’ll be turned into data mining, training, and revenue generation
Isn’t the AI Mozilla is talking about all run locally?
The post stresses the feature will be opt-in and that the user “is in control.”
Nothingburger
I’ve actually flipped on this position - but before you pull out your pitchforks and torches, please listen to what I have to say.
Do we want mass surveillance through SaaS? No. Do we want mass breach of copyright just because it’s a small holder and not some giant publisher - I.e “rules for thee” type vibe? Hell no. But do we throw the baby out with the bath water? Also: heck no. But let’s me underline a few facts.
- AI currently requires power greedy chips that also don’t utelize memory effectively enough
- Because of this it’s relegated to massive, globe heating infrastructure
- SaaS will always, always track you and harvest your data
- Said data will be used in marketing and psy-ops to manipulate you, your children and your community
- The more they track, the better their models become, which they’ll keep under lock and key
- More and more devices are coming with NPUs and TPUs on-chip
- That is the hardware has not caught up to the software yet
See where I’m going with this?
Add to the fact that people like their chatbots and can even learn to use them responsibly, but as long as they’re feeding the corpos, it’ll be used against them. Not only that, but in true silicon valley fashion, it’ll be monopolized.
The libre movement exists to bring power back to the user by fighting these conditions. It’s also a very good idea to standardize things so that it’s not hidden behind a proprietary API or service.
That’s why if Mozilla seeks to standardize locally run AI models by way of the browser, then that’s a good thing! Again; not if they’re feeding some SaaS.
But it their goal and their implementation is to bring models to the general consumer so that they can seize the means of computing, then that’s a good thing!
Again, if you’d rather just kick up dust and bemoan the idiocy and narcissistic nature of Silicon Valley, then you’ve already given them what they want - that they, and they alone, get to be the sole proprietaries of AI that is standardized. That’s like giving the average user over to a historically predatory ilk who’d rather build an autocracy than actually innovate.
Mozilla can be the hero we need. They can actually focus on consumer hardware, to give people what they want WITHOUT mass tracking and data harvesting.
That is if they want to. I’m not saying they’re not going to bend over, but they need the right kind of push back. They need to be told “local AI only - no SaaS” and then they can focus on creating web standards for local AI, effectively becoming the David to Silicon Valleys Goliath.
I know this is an unpopular opinion and I know the Silicon Valley barons are a bunch of sociopaths with way too much money, but we can’t give them monopoly over this. That would be bad!! We need to give the power to the user, and that means standardization!
Take it from an old curmudgeon. I’ve shook my fist at the cloud, I’ve read a ton of EULAs and I’ve opposed many predatory practices. But we need to understand that the user wants what the user wants. We can’t stick our heads in the sand and just repeat “AI bad” ad nauseum. We need to mobilize against the central giants.
We need a local AI movement and Mozilla could be in the forefront of this, if it weren’t for the pushback and outright cynicism people trevall generally (and justifiably) have - but we can’t let these cretinous bastards hold all the AI cards.
We need libre AI, and we need it now!
Thank you for your consideration.
I agree that: SaaS = UaaP (User as a Product). Most importantly, AI is powerful and here to stay and if it’s completely controlled by the rich and powerful, then the rest of us are majorly screwed.
Small models, local models, models that anybody can deploy and control the way they see fit, PUBLIC models not controlled by the rich and powerful - these will be crucial if we’re going to avoid the worst case situation.
IMHO it’s better to start downloading and playing with local quantized LLMs (i barely know what i’m talking about here, i admit, but bear with me - i’m just trying to add something useful to the discussion), it’s better to start taking hold of the tech and tinkering, like we did with cars when they were new, and planes, and computers, and internet … so that hopefully there will be alternatives to the privately controlled rich-and-powerful-corpo models.
Well if they do I’ll just switch to whatever browser that doesn’t.
Those unhappy have another option: use an AI‑free Firefox fork such as LibreWolf, Waterfox, or Zen Browser.
Any idea as to when LibreWolf will be coming out with a mobile browser?
I’ve used the duckduckgo browser for a bit which is nice. You can disable all of the AI features there.
Just be aware that DDG uses Microsoft’s Bing on it’s backend.
They’re really trying to shove this down our throats aren’t they?
B- but- ✨yaiy window!!1!✨!1!!
We see a lot of promise in AI browser features making your online experience smoother, more helpful, and free from the everyday disruptions that break your flow
I don’t really see AI and LLMs as a solution there. Things that disrupt are typically ads or other capitalist nonsense. What are they thinking and how will AI help?
We dont want ai, Mozilla. We dont want it.
The more AI is being pushed into my face, the more it pisses me off.
Mozilla could have made an extension and promote it on their extension store. Rather than adding cruft to their browser and turning it on by default.
The list of things to turn off to get a pleasant experience in Firefox is getting longer by the day. Not as bad as chrome, but still.
Rather than adding cruft to their browser and turning it on by default.
The second paragraph of the article:
The post stresses the feature will be opt-in and that the user “is in control.”
That being said, I agree with you that they should have made it an extension if they really wanted to make sure the user “is in control.”
Switching to de-Mozilla’d Firefox (Waterfox) is as simple as copying your profile folder from FF to WF. Everything transfers over, and I mean everything. No mozilla corp, no opting out of shit in menus at all.
Oh this triggers me. There have been multiple good suggestions for Firefox in the past that are closed with nofix as “this can be provided by the community as an add-on”. Yet they shove the crappiest crap into the main browser now.
You want AI in your browser? Just add <your favourite spying ad machine> as a “search engine” option, with a URL like
https://chatgpt.com/?q=%25s, with a shortcut like
@ai. You can then ask it anything right there in your search bar.Maybe also add one with a URL with some query pre-written like
https://chatgpt.com/?q=summarize this page for me: %sas
@aisor something, modern chatbots have the ability to make HTTP requests for you. Then if you want to summarize the page you’re on, you do Ctrl+L Ctrl+C @ais Ctrl+V Enter. There, I solved all your AI needs with 4 shortcuts without literally any client-side code.Emissions. Economic problems. Goading several people into suicide.
Like, if you ship a food item with harmful bacteria in it, it gets recalled. If you have a fatal design flaw in a car, it gets recalled. If your LLM encourages people to separate from their loved ones and kill themselves, nothing fucking happens.
Just render the page, page renderer.
monkey paw: curls
Yes, the page has been rendered by a large webpage model based on the URL.
Those unhappy have another option: use an AI‑free Firefox fork such as LibreWolf, Waterfox, or Zen Browser.
And I have taken that other option.
Also: Vanadium and/or Ironfox on Android.
A fork is great, but the more a fork deviates, the more issues there are likely to be. Firefox is already at low enough numbers that it’s not really sustainable.
Then Mozilla should start listening to their users instead of driving them away. I know I stopped using Firefox after being a regular user since launch because the AI nonsense became the last sta straw.
Then Mozilla should start listening to their users instead of driving them away.
I think the hope is to get more people in than losing them. But with Ai nobody will stay forever, because the time someone else makes a better Ai tool, they switch. Because Mozilla loses personality and uniqueness and start getting replaceable. … just like employees who are forced to use Ai instead their own work and knowledge.
Yes but we shouldn’t let perfect be the enemy of good.
What do you mean by “we shouldn’t let perfect be the enemy of good”? Why should I use a browser which is actively anti-user when there are better alternatives out there?
There aren’t better alternatives, and the ai shit is all easy to disable.
ai shit is all easy to disable
Users don’t have to disable it. Just give them a browser where they’re not enabled by default!
To my knowledge that literally only exists in the form of a Firefox fork like Librewolf. Which takes more effort to switch to than simply disabling a couple values in config.
There aren’t better alternatives
They are literally mentioned in the article:
Those unhappy have another option: use an AI‑free Firefox fork such as LibreWolf, Waterfox, or Zen Browser.
- https://manualdousuario.net/en/mozilla-firefox-window-ai/.
Well, the first two essentially are Firefox and the latter is very immature to the point that I doubt you could reliably use it. It’s in beta.
Disabling it is one more thing to fingerprint me on.
It serves literally no purpose for any intelligent person.
The good is other rendering engines currently in the works.
My two biggest issues with a fork are: a) timely updates, they take a bit longer than the main version, and b) trust issues, I don’t trust most forks.
Try Phoenix for Firefox https://github.com/celenityy/Phoenix
What I don’t get: Isn’t Vanadium Chromium under the hood?
It is.
My understanding is that you go to Ironfox to optimize for privacy and Vanadium to optimize for security.
It depends on your threat model.
Either way, both are better on both fronts when compared to default Chrome or Firefox.
The truth is that Chromium is really good. It has the best security and performance.
Vanadium takes that and makes changes to make it more secure and private.
I think the problem with Chromium isn’t so much that Blink or V8 is bad or anything, it’s that it’s entirely under the thumb of Google. We’re essentially being set up for another Internet Explorer scenario, only Google unlike Microsoft won’t just be sitting on their laurels. Google is an advertising company, their entire business model is the web. Google Search is the tool used to find things, and with Google Chrome being the go-to browser for a lot of people, Google essentially ends up in control of both how you access the web and what you access.
That sort of power is scary, which is why I personally avoid anything Chromium based as much as I am able to. Chromium itself is fantastic, but I don’t like the baggage it comes with.
That’s valid.
That’s also part of the reason I like Webkit. It’s in a nice spot between Firefox and Chromium when it comes to security and performance. And importantly, is not from an ad company and often passes on browser specs that would be harmful to privacy and security.
I forget what the site is called, but I saw one that nicely layed out different browser specs and gives the explanation why one of the engine developers decided against supporting or implementing it.
I just wish there was a good Webkit browser on Linux. Unfortunately, Gnome Web just feels slow and unresponsive despite good benchmarks.
Gods I wish Epiphany/Gnome Web was better. The Kagi people are working on bringing Orion to Linux, which I believe will be using WebKit there as well.
It’s kind of funny that we don’t have a solid WebKit browser on Linux, since WebKit has its roots in the KDE Projects KHTML engine for Konqueror.
I guess that kind of ties in to my anger at these massive tech companies profiting off of FOSS but doing almost fuck-all to contribute. Google opening LLM generated bug reports in FFMPEG when all of the streaming media giants are propped up by this one project is just one example. There should be some kind of tax for this, I feel. They’re benefitting greatly, and provide nothing in return.
Google search hasnt been usable for over a year.
Doesn’t mean that people don’t use it. Lots of people do.
Yes. Chromium isn’t bad in itself though.
Wrong. You are both popularizing Google tech and decreasing web browser diversity when you use any chromium variety
Vandium is all about not standing out from the crowd. You use it to not make a statement and hide your activity within the majority of useragents. If you want to make a statement that’s great, but you should only do it when you’re ok being fingerprinted.
Who says I’m “making a statement” by using firefox? That’s not the goal at all.
I didn’t mean that in a negative way. All I meant was that using a non-chromium browser to help move the needle is a privacy tradeoff. I keep both vandium and ironfox installed and use them at different times for different things.
Google tech
Chromium is open-source. It doesn’t belong to Google or anyone else.
Are you serious? Chromium is very much mostly written by Google and the direction it takes in every way that matters is entirely controlled by Google.
This still doesn’t mean Google has some kind of ownership for it. Nobody stops you from forking it and taking it into a different direction.
It actually does. You’re still supporting a browser monoculture unless you change it so radically that it makes no sense to call it a fork anymore
I mean technically, yes. However the sheer amount of LoC chromium has and the costs of actually hard forking (and properly maintaining it) makes it quite difficult. That’s why right now we only have the choice of Firefox based browsers and Chromium, then hopefully a good third contender being the Ladybird browser in the future.
You could also go build a house (or even a cabin) with your own two hands, but most people typically go and buy one or pay for one to be built for them instead.
