MLs are pro violent suppression of any dissenting opinion they have no leg to stand on. The first they came poem is completely irrelevant here. Theres no evidence to suggest monitoring Russian foreign agents leading to anything remotely similar to the Nazi machine.
Marxist-Leninists support the rights of nations to self-determination and the working class to resist oppression by any means necessary. In the event that nations establish sovereignty, and the working classes establish socialism, we also support their right to defend both. The “dissent” we support suppressing is fascism, capitalism, colonialism, imperialism, etc. Accusing leftists of being foreign agents is a time-tested mechanism the Nazis and other groups like the US have used to squash labor organizing and decolonizing efforts.
If you really want to own us and laugh at us then you should consider reading the texts in cowbees introductionary reading list that would really own him and be so funny!
It’s a Marxist-Leninist wiki, and the pages I linked are just the ML positions on what constitutes a nation and what we mean by self-determination. It isn’t even something like a current or historical event that might draw contention, it’s just an explanation of what Marxists believe theoretically.
The increasing rise of Fascism in America and many parts of Europe and you think puting Communist on “a list” for “security” has nothing to do with what that poem was talking about?
There is a very vocal part of ml users, who are not Communist or socialist, but anti West and pro-China or pro-Russia.
Point that Chinese workers are - according to Chinese labour law and Chinese statistics - exploited and work on average more than 6 days a week, and you’ll get banned (https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/15/14/11409).
Point that soviet Russia was imperialist (or quote Mao saying that) and you will get banned.
I would ask you; have you ever listened to an MLs response to these things? I could do that if you want.
But, I think you’re confusing the moderation of an instance to maintain intelligent discourse with a conclusion of “they are denying facts”
I’ll give an analogy. If it helps.
Do you think a person posting “black crime statistics” in any “left leaning” sub would be taken seriously? Would that sub explain to every individual person the relationship of poverty, the relationship of policing black neighborhoods, the relationship of the for profit prison systems? The war on drugs, etc etc etc.
No, they would offer resources to these things. But the sub is not meant to be a place where “technically” style Ben Shapiro types are given a voice. They get banned.
Those types of people would not be welcome in any “liberal” space. They are not there to engage in conversation. They are there to say “black people are criminals”.
This is the same type of perspective that most MLs have on China or otherwise. It is not that we have a cult like view of China or other historically socialist projects.
So, yeah, maybe you got banned. But you were probably the 1000th person posting “statistics” that was never looking to hear the response.
Maybe you were. Maybe you were sincere in asking. But an ML run instance is not the place to learn that. It’s a place for discourse and criticism between people that already have a certain level of agreement in how they analyze the world (dialectical materialism being that method). At least on the level of being able to understand why the equivalent of “black on black crime” is conservative garbage.
If you got this far. I’ll gladly address what you linked. And my analogy is not 1to1. I have major criticisms of China when it comes to labor. But, we need to establish a level of understanding if you are actually interested in another persons perspective.
If not. That’s fine. But, you’re not in .ml. I am trying to have a good faith interpretation of your points. You will get that from good people from .ml OUTSIDE of .ml.
The .ml echochamber you’re arguing for, is focused on being anti-western, not being Communist, not on improving workers rights or life standard. And your post again proves that. You really shouldn’t call yourself Communists, you are not. Empty headed academics at best.
It could be not the users (I have an account on .ml) who are at fault, but the mods, but that does shape what you are allowed to think and say. And that makes all it dangerously tribal, homogenized to a point where it’s indistinguishable from USSR and China cult to an external observer.
Do you know what the worst part is? How .ml instance is moderated, how the discussions are there allowed to shape, they alienate and polarize against Communism people from EU and USA. That is literally what Operation Gladio was expected to achieve.
I don’t know what kind of communism you think there is that doesn’t oppose western imperialism, support the Chinese socialist project, or applaud the damage that Russia has done to NATO. All of these positions materially improve the condition of the global working class.
Like, what do you think communism is, if it isn’t opposition to the global system of capitalism that is destroying the world and murdering millions of people?
And also, I hope you note that my language is precise. I say “oppose western imperialism,” not “hate everything about the west.” And “support Chinese socialism,” not “China can do no wrong.” And “applaud opposition to NATO,” not “I want to suck Putin’s dick.” Marxists are concerned with the nuances and complexities of material reality, we try to avoid emotionally reactive stances that try to sort the world into good vs evil.
or applaud the damage that Russia has done to NATO
Yeah, I don’t think I want to talk to anyone who applauds any wars. And you’re literally proving my point of being anti western garbage instead of workers unite communist.
Yeah, I don’t think I want to talk to anyone who applauds any wars.
Alright so you don’t want to talk to people supporting Ukraine either, then? I figure you get mad when you watch Saving Private Ryan or Inglorious Bastards? People who speak positively of the Vietnamese in their fight against France, Japan, France and the US are right out the window? Same goes for the houthis, right? All communist guerillas, I suppose. And freedom fighters through the years.
I don’t think I missed your point. But we have shifted the goal post. Your comment was about very specific points related to criticism of China and labor conditions and why something like that would get you banned.
My reply attempted to be more general around those specifics. I was attempting to give you a perspective on why “stating facts” would be considered bad faith in a certain perspective. Hence the analogy I gave.
So I may have misdirected the conversation unintentionally. That wasn’t my intention.
I am not even necessarily defending .ml specifically. I don’t spend a majority of my time on that instance. You can see my post history. So, l can concede to being too defensive there. I should say I’m more defending what .ml means for ML (Marxist Leninist). I personally have mostly encountered cridge posts (usually hyperbolic) with good comment discourse there.
My intention was to explain the perspective of a literal Marxist Leninist and why the examples you gave in your original comment would be considered, in any leftist circle, a bad faith argument based on the INTENTION of them. The point of the statistics is to not ask “why are labor conditions like this” but to CONCLUDE that China is some corruption of leftism and “not real socialism”. It’s not meaningful in why it’s being brought up.
No ML is worried about addressing the labor conditions of China. But we aren’t interested in someone bringing up labor conditions in China who’s only reason to discuss is to reach a conclusion that is in favor to the narrative that is the larger problem of American Imperialism and pro capitalist propaganda.
ThirdConsul is a nationalist. So, neither, just someone that will grab Mao’s incorrect and ultraleftist take on the USSR being “social imperialist” while at the same time opposing socialism in China at all periods. ThirdConsul grabs whatever quote is meaningfully convenient, regardless of whether or not they actually agree with the underlying analysis.
There literally isn’t and you literally won’t.
But surely you must have overwhelming amounts of proof for these claims, which you can readily present, since it is so common. I mean if it is so common as you make it out to be, then it should be probable without any effort at all really.
In my general experience what happens is someone like you comes in, says some bullshit, gets challenged on it, you throw a tantrum, after about 20 comments you finally do a brief Google, whereafter you pull up a source you’ve only skimmed yourself, you then receive context to the source and this makes you even more pissy to the point you drop the act and just throw out some variation of bigotry, then you get banned. Then you think “oh wow, you get banned just for mentioning Tiananmen Square!” even though you dont. You get banned for behaving like an asshole, like you do most places.
Yes i dont think a poem that lists several groups of people being targeted by the state is the same as someone saying they want to disclose people who have been working to undermine Europe on behalf of russia.
This has nothing to do with communists they were not mentioned. MLs are only a subsect of communists and they are mentioned for deepthroating Putin’s boot not because they’re communists.
I really would love to understand where this idea that “Marxist Leninist = Putin supporter”
Marxist Leninist (myself included) hate Putin. Putin is literally the embodiment of western neoliberalism in post Soviet Russia. He was literally installed and supported by western aligned oligarchs and capitalist within Russia.
I really am curious where you get this idea. I’d love receipts. I really hope it’s not just “MLs criticize NATO”. I really really hope it’s not just a binary view of the world like that. I swear people view the world like it’s a football match.
Why would we not criticize Putin? He’s a reactionary capitalist. Our critique of Putin isn’t that he’s some supernatural evil like liberal analysis often circles back to, but instead based on his actual, material position. Pushing back on liberal analysis doesn’t mean Putin is “our guy” or anything of the sort. First and foremost, we oppose the imperialist system headed by the US, and NATO which exists to protect it.
Any critical support for Russia extends to their right to self-determination from NATO encirclement, and their opposition to western imperialism, not to their reactionary, bourgeois society nor Putin at the top. The dissolution of the Soviet Union was a tremendous human tragedy, one that directly led to the current war today.
Marxist-Leninists despise NATO, for the genocidal terror inflicted by its member-states around the world and its position as a coalition of imperialist powers. Marxist-Leninists also despise Putin and United Russia, and believe socialism to be a necessity for Russia in the future that the nationalists will not accept willingly.
The major difference is that Marxists are materialists. We don’t believe Putin is some embodiment of supernatural evil trying to eat babies and conquer the world, we seek materialist explanations for the conditions and analyze them dialectically. This puts our analysis at odds with those who see the world similarly to Marvel movies, as conflict between the forces of good and evil.
Marxist-Leninists despise NATO, for the genocidal terror inflicted by its member-states around the world and its position as a coalition of imperialist powers
Yep, just trying to keep it basic in this environment. There’s a mountain of depth we could go to, but for many people here this may be their first time hearing actual opposition to NATO as an institution, with no knowledge of Marxism beyond “capitalism bad, communism good.” You gotta meet people where they are at, without committing tailist errors by blocking further growth.
For sure. I just feel like “it was full of nazis from its’ inception” is a good starting point - If there are good sources backing the claim. Most people understand that “nazi = bad” so it’s a great way to make them think deeper about NATO because most westerners are of the notion that “NATO = good”
So you have no examples? Like, you don’t even have to link it. You can literally just tell me an example. I’m just asking for the bare minimum here mate.
My feed is full of Linux memes and pro Palestine posts. I’m not the charactercher you’ve constructed in your head.
Responded here. Basically, I couldn’t find anything showing what people claim, but I would love to. At least we have a starting point if we can find any post. After that we need to move to it being so common it’s just something you see, but hey, let’s just start at step one and take it from then.
who have been working to undermine Europe on behalf of russia.
literally zero evidence of this other than a lot of loud people with hurt feelings online.
‘saying they want to disclose’
here’s what OP thinks
i’m a trans anarchist who happened to land on this server out of sheer fucking happenstance almost 4 years ago, part of why i havent bothered to leave is because it’s always the most overt fascists getting really mad about a fucking posting server.
Even if only one person at the bar is a Nazi, if you keep going everyone is going to call you a Nazi as well once the bar is known for being on with Nazis.
As long as your ok with being associated with the thing the place is known for then it doesn’t really matter.
The vocal group of a place is it’s face no matter how big or small that group is.
Right, and there’s no one who supports Putin on .ml.
For a group of people who like to fellate themselves talking about “nuance” you people struggle with anyone who has a deeper analysis than “Putin evil, Russians are orcs, Russia is Mordor, Europe is full of elves, zelensky is Aragorn”. It makes you see red and go “OH SO YOU LOVE PUTIN??? WOWWWW”
Ask the typical tankie from ml or hexbear whether they agree that Putin should face his criminal charges at the ICC and is just as much a war criminal as Bibi and that they were wrong to invade Ukraine and wage an attempted genocide, and whether China and North Korea are also complicit in genocide for supporting Russia’s illegal invasion. I bet the majority dodge the straightforward question with what should be a straightforward answer.
Don’t be dismayed by conglomeration of either young and naive kool-aid drinkers, or the actual foreign operatives (for which we know have major online troll farms).
Well its not one question, its a bunch lumped together.
Should Putin face criminal charges at the ICC?
Sure
like Bibi?
Neither Putin nor Netanyahu are the issues with their nation or the driving force behind what is going on. Putin is in fact the moderate in the Russian government, waiting much longer than what most of his colleagues wanted him to with regards to invasion and subsequent escalation. Like how 80+% of israelis support the genocide.
If you want him convicted? Probably not.
He’s just as much a war criminal
No. Israel is enacting an actual genocide against a defenceless population, the genocide has been going on since 1947 and has drastically accelerated these last few years.
While there are many accusations of genocide against Russia, its pretty clear (as has been thoroughly investigated by international observers - whom have been allowed to investigate, unlike in Israel) that, while there are civilian casualties, the goal of the russian military is to win a war against Ukraine, not exterminate a people.
he was wrong to invade Ukraine
Honestly, this one is tough. I feel like it was wrong, but I understand why Russia did it - the NATO posturing, the brinksmanship, the constant breaches of treaties… At a certain point one has to ask what else Russia could do. Now I know how you’re going to take this “OH SO YOU SUPPORT RUSSIA YOU CONDONE AHHH” but really if you actually read what I write, then that’s not what I am saying. I am saying, given russias position, russias interest in remaining a sovereign country, the threat against Russia (perceived or real), the situation Russia was in was one where the only outcome given to it was invasion. Its not like it did not try diplomacy first.
wage an attempted genocide
Wait, aren’t you the zionist who couldn’t say Israel is committing a genocide? A classic zionist tactic is cheapening the word by using it to describe any hostile action. Im sorry, but between Russia and Ukraine, Russia is not the one who has systematically pursued an ethnic minority, banned the language of that minority, bombed the fuck out of areas with that minority and all that stuff.
China and North Korea are also complicit in genocide for supporting Russia’s illegal invasion.
Since I don’t see how Russia is committing a genocide (because genocide isn’t just “when you are at war” if that were the case then the Native Americans committed genocide against colonists in the 17- and 1800’s. I hope we can both see how ridiculous that is.) They are giving support to Russia, so they are complicit. Id like to know what makes the invasion of Ukraine less legal than other invasions before I agree on the “illegal” part.
for which we know have major online troll farms
Everyone Who Disagrees With Me Is A Foreigner.
This refrain of yours is so odd to me, because I never see you invokenit with people you agree with, despite the fact there’s also massive pro-us-regime botfarms.
Russia is engaged in a war with a near peer, Israel is committing an extermination campaign on Palestine using stolen land. I have no love for Putin, reactionary nationalist that he is, but to equate the Russo-Ukrainian war with the genocide of Palestine is to make a mockery of genocide. Further, such a blanket statement erases the plight of the people of the Donbass region, who have been at war with Kiev since 2014 and who want to join the Russian Federation. The Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics have just as much a right to self-determination as Palestinians do.
Condemn Putin all you want, I have no love for him as I said. Hang him if you will. But don’t undermine the actual plight of the many decades of genocide committed against the Palestinian people to “own the tankies.” You have a history of undermining the plight of Palestinians, this isn’t a new development for you, it’s a repeated pattern.
Agreeing makes no assertions as to the relative severity of the genocide (for there is of course always a worse genocide capable of being perpetrated); it simply agrees that both are war criminals who should be prosecuted relative to their stated War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity.
Seeing you devolve into Pro-Kremlin propaganda as any good Vatnik does, I am not surprised in the slightest. Defending traitors of the Donbass like one would the Confederacy of the US Civil War is equally atrocious. I wonder if you could even acknowledge that MH17 was brought down by a Russian BUK.
So in more ways than one, you revealed your hand in this comment.
Thus neutral audience take note as this individual is a case-in-point: They could not simply say “Yes.”
Edit: Fun little scavenger-hunt. Can anyone spot the other subtlety revealing their Russo-bias?
Ukraine is not being subject to genocide. It is a peer-near peer war. The genocide in Palestine is a mass extermination campaign. To the extent that Putin should be tried for war crimes, so should Zelensky and the government in Kiev, who have had allegations of war crimes independently investigated since 2014 when the Ukrainian Civil War began. Zelensky himself won his presidency in 2019 on the basis of downscaling the war, but instead continued pressing forward.
As for the struggle of the Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics, equating them to the slavers of the Confederacy is enormously farcical. The people of the DPR and LPR seceded not to commit slavery, but because the president they popularly supported was coup’d by the Bandera-upholding factions in the Euromaidan coup.
The people of the Donbass speak Russian at higher degrees than most of the rest of Ukraine, and thus the language laws restricting Russian also facilitated the decision to leave. The people of the Donbass have the right to self-determination, just like the people of Palestine. The Confederacy had no such right because they were separating in order to continue slavery, not because they were escaping instability and the suppression of the language they spoke.
The “neutral audience,” which does not exist as nobody is truly neutral, can see plainly how you undermine the plight of Palestinians and the people of the Donbass region plainly.
Not in Russia, but in actual sovereign countries like the recent Venezuela shitshow (Vietnam, etc. - oh no, communism). Yes, I’m not worried about a capitalist organisation attacking a capitalist country, but we’re still supporting a corrupt system heavily influenced by the US.
MLs are pro violent suppression of any dissenting opinion they have no leg to stand on. The first they came poem is completely irrelevant here. Theres no evidence to suggest monitoring Russian foreign agents leading to anything remotely similar to the Nazi machine.
Marxist-Leninists support the rights of nations to self-determination and the working class to resist oppression by any means necessary. In the event that nations establish sovereignty, and the working classes establish socialism, we also support their right to defend both. The “dissent” we support suppressing is fascism, capitalism, colonialism, imperialism, etc. Accusing leftists of being foreign agents is a time-tested mechanism the Nazis and other groups like the US have used to squash labor organizing and decolonizing efforts.
Thanks for the link to tankie grokipedia. Very funny stuff.
If you really want to own us and laugh at us then you should consider reading the texts in cowbees introductionary reading list that would really own him and be so funny!
It’s a Marxist-Leninist wiki, and the pages I linked are just the ML positions on what constitutes a nation and what we mean by self-determination. It isn’t even something like a current or historical event that might draw contention, it’s just an explanation of what Marxists believe theoretically.
It calls anyone to the right of Mao Zedong a fascist. It calls Wikipedia a propaganda outlet. I don’t think it’s a reliable source.
The increasing rise of Fascism in America and many parts of Europe and you think puting Communist on “a list” for “security” has nothing to do with what that poem was talking about?
There is a very vocal part of ml users, who are not Communist or socialist, but anti West and pro-China or pro-Russia.
Point that Chinese workers are - according to Chinese labour law and Chinese statistics - exploited and work on average more than 6 days a week, and you’ll get banned (https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/15/14/11409).
Point that soviet Russia was imperialist (or quote Mao saying that) and you will get banned.
I would ask you; have you ever listened to an MLs response to these things? I could do that if you want.
But, I think you’re confusing the moderation of an instance to maintain intelligent discourse with a conclusion of “they are denying facts”
I’ll give an analogy. If it helps.
Do you think a person posting “black crime statistics” in any “left leaning” sub would be taken seriously? Would that sub explain to every individual person the relationship of poverty, the relationship of policing black neighborhoods, the relationship of the for profit prison systems? The war on drugs, etc etc etc.
No, they would offer resources to these things. But the sub is not meant to be a place where “technically” style Ben Shapiro types are given a voice. They get banned.
Those types of people would not be welcome in any “liberal” space. They are not there to engage in conversation. They are there to say “black people are criminals”.
This is the same type of perspective that most MLs have on China or otherwise. It is not that we have a cult like view of China or other historically socialist projects.
So, yeah, maybe you got banned. But you were probably the 1000th person posting “statistics” that was never looking to hear the response.
Maybe you were. Maybe you were sincere in asking. But an ML run instance is not the place to learn that. It’s a place for discourse and criticism between people that already have a certain level of agreement in how they analyze the world (dialectical materialism being that method). At least on the level of being able to understand why the equivalent of “black on black crime” is conservative garbage.
If you got this far. I’ll gladly address what you linked. And my analogy is not 1to1. I have major criticisms of China when it comes to labor. But, we need to establish a level of understanding if you are actually interested in another persons perspective.
If not. That’s fine. But, you’re not in .ml. I am trying to have a good faith interpretation of your points. You will get that from good people from .ml OUTSIDE of .ml.
You missed my point.
The .ml echochamber you’re arguing for, is focused on being anti-western, not being Communist, not on improving workers rights or life standard. And your post again proves that. You really shouldn’t call yourself Communists, you are not. Empty headed academics at best.
It could be not the users (I have an account on .ml) who are at fault, but the mods, but that does shape what you are allowed to think and say. And that makes all it dangerously tribal, homogenized to a point where it’s indistinguishable from USSR and China cult to an external observer.
Do you know what the worst part is? How .ml instance is moderated, how the discussions are there allowed to shape, they alienate and polarize against Communism people from EU and USA. That is literally what Operation Gladio was expected to achieve.
I don’t know what kind of communism you think there is that doesn’t oppose western imperialism, support the Chinese socialist project, or applaud the damage that Russia has done to NATO. All of these positions materially improve the condition of the global working class.
Like, what do you think communism is, if it isn’t opposition to the global system of capitalism that is destroying the world and murdering millions of people?
And also, I hope you note that my language is precise. I say “oppose western imperialism,” not “hate everything about the west.” And “support Chinese socialism,” not “China can do no wrong.” And “applaud opposition to NATO,” not “I want to suck Putin’s dick.” Marxists are concerned with the nuances and complexities of material reality, we try to avoid emotionally reactive stances that try to sort the world into good vs evil.
https://spectrejournal.com/one-should-not-camouflage-capitalist-and-imperialist-china-as-socialist/
Yeah, I don’t think I want to talk to anyone who applauds any wars. And you’re literally proving my point of being anti western garbage instead of workers unite communist.
Alright so you don’t want to talk to people supporting Ukraine either, then? I figure you get mad when you watch Saving Private Ryan or Inglorious Bastards? People who speak positively of the Vietnamese in their fight against France, Japan, France and the US are right out the window? Same goes for the houthis, right? All communist guerillas, I suppose. And freedom fighters through the years.
Or you obtuse or insane? Invaders are freedom fighters now?
Next thing you’re gonna say is that Israel is right commiting the genocide? Crazy troll.
I don’t think I missed your point. But we have shifted the goal post. Your comment was about very specific points related to criticism of China and labor conditions and why something like that would get you banned.
My reply attempted to be more general around those specifics. I was attempting to give you a perspective on why “stating facts” would be considered bad faith in a certain perspective. Hence the analogy I gave.
So I may have misdirected the conversation unintentionally. That wasn’t my intention.
I am not even necessarily defending .ml specifically. I don’t spend a majority of my time on that instance. You can see my post history. So, l can concede to being too defensive there. I should say I’m more defending what .ml means for ML (Marxist Leninist). I personally have mostly encountered cridge posts (usually hyperbolic) with good comment discourse there.
My intention was to explain the perspective of a literal Marxist Leninist and why the examples you gave in your original comment would be considered, in any leftist circle, a bad faith argument based on the INTENTION of them. The point of the statistics is to not ask “why are labor conditions like this” but to CONCLUDE that China is some corruption of leftism and “not real socialism”. It’s not meaningful in why it’s being brought up.
No ML is worried about addressing the labor conditions of China. But we aren’t interested in someone bringing up labor conditions in China who’s only reason to discuss is to reach a conclusion that is in favor to the narrative that is the larger problem of American Imperialism and pro capitalist propaganda.
So, are you obtuse or a troll?
ThirdConsul is a nationalist. So, neither, just someone that will grab Mao’s incorrect and ultraleftist take on the USSR being “social imperialist” while at the same time opposing socialism in China at all periods. ThirdConsul grabs whatever quote is meaningfully convenient, regardless of whether or not they actually agree with the underlying analysis.
No, they just see what your community stands for.
If you aren’t like that, you really should move instances.
So the reason they can’t engage with what the other person writes is because of their preconceived notions about an instance?
This makes no sense.
There literally isn’t and you literally won’t.
But surely you must have overwhelming amounts of proof for these claims, which you can readily present, since it is so common. I mean if it is so common as you make it out to be, then it should be probable without any effort at all really.
In my general experience what happens is someone like you comes in, says some bullshit, gets challenged on it, you throw a tantrum, after about 20 comments you finally do a brief Google, whereafter you pull up a source you’ve only skimmed yourself, you then receive context to the source and this makes you even more pissy to the point you drop the act and just throw out some variation of bigotry, then you get banned. Then you think “oh wow, you get banned just for mentioning Tiananmen Square!” even though you dont. You get banned for behaving like an asshole, like you do most places.
Even the .ml comments in this comment section disprove your statement.
Odd how your response failed to have any concrete examples.
Which ones? Quote the ones that specifically argue against socialism and for Putin and neoliberal Russia as an unequivocal good.
Yes i dont think a poem that lists several groups of people being targeted by the state is the same as someone saying they want to disclose people who have been working to undermine Europe on behalf of russia.
This has nothing to do with communists they were not mentioned. MLs are only a subsect of communists and they are mentioned for deepthroating Putin’s boot not because they’re communists.
I really would love to understand where this idea that “Marxist Leninist = Putin supporter”
Marxist Leninist (myself included) hate Putin. Putin is literally the embodiment of western neoliberalism in post Soviet Russia. He was literally installed and supported by western aligned oligarchs and capitalist within Russia.
I really am curious where you get this idea. I’d love receipts. I really hope it’s not just “MLs criticize NATO”. I really really hope it’s not just a binary view of the world like that. I swear people view the world like it’s a football match.
Do you think Russia is still run by MLs?
Woah, I have never seen a Marxist Leninist on here criticise Putin before. Fair play.
Why would we not criticize Putin? He’s a reactionary capitalist. Our critique of Putin isn’t that he’s some supernatural evil like liberal analysis often circles back to, but instead based on his actual, material position. Pushing back on liberal analysis doesn’t mean Putin is “our guy” or anything of the sort. First and foremost, we oppose the imperialist system headed by the US, and NATO which exists to protect it.
Any critical support for Russia extends to their right to self-determination from NATO encirclement, and their opposition to western imperialism, not to their reactionary, bourgeois society nor Putin at the top. The dissolution of the Soviet Union was a tremendous human tragedy, one that directly led to the current war today.
I’m happy to hear that.
Really?
Really.
I guess we hang out in different circles then.
Don’t play dumb to try and waste my time. You know exactly where it comes from and you’re on the ML instance so your feed is full of pro russia shit.
Marxist-Leninists despise NATO, for the genocidal terror inflicted by its member-states around the world and its position as a coalition of imperialist powers. Marxist-Leninists also despise Putin and United Russia, and believe socialism to be a necessity for Russia in the future that the nationalists will not accept willingly.
The major difference is that Marxists are materialists. We don’t believe Putin is some embodiment of supernatural evil trying to eat babies and conquer the world, we seek materialist explanations for the conditions and analyze them dialectically. This puts our analysis at odds with those who see the world similarly to Marvel movies, as conflict between the forces of good and evil.
Well… That, and the fact that it is a nazi institution full of nazis that put nazis back into power in West germany 2
Not that the history of an institution condems it completely, but it certainly does not help when it continues to be a nazi institution
Yep, just trying to keep it basic in this environment. There’s a mountain of depth we could go to, but for many people here this may be their first time hearing actual opposition to NATO as an institution, with no knowledge of Marxism beyond “capitalism bad, communism good.” You gotta meet people where they are at, without committing tailist errors by blocking further growth.
For sure. I just feel like “it was full of nazis from its’ inception” is a good starting point - If there are good sources backing the claim. Most people understand that “nazi = bad” so it’s a great way to make them think deeper about NATO because most westerners are of the notion that “NATO = good”
So you have no examples? Like, you don’t even have to link it. You can literally just tell me an example. I’m just asking for the bare minimum here mate.
My feed is full of Linux memes and pro Palestine posts. I’m not the charactercher you’ve constructed in your head.
https://lemmy.nz/post/22289983
The irony of people doing guilt by association on .ml posting the biggest Nazi bar on Lemmy is sending me
So you can’t prove it? Alright
https://lemmy.nz/post/22289983
Ah yes the comm that’s very concerned about maintaining purity from ‘degenerates’
Responded here. Basically, I couldn’t find anything showing what people claim, but I would love to. At least we have a starting point if we can find any post. After that we need to move to it being so common it’s just something you see, but hey, let’s just start at step one and take it from then.
literally zero evidence of this other than a lot of loud people with hurt feelings online.
‘saying they want to disclose’
here’s what OP thinks
i’m a trans anarchist who happened to land on this server out of sheer fucking happenstance almost 4 years ago, part of why i havent bothered to leave is because it’s always the most overt fascists getting really mad about a fucking posting server.
It’s just the Nazi bar problem.
Even if only one person at the bar is a Nazi, if you keep going everyone is going to call you a Nazi as well once the bar is known for being on with Nazis.
As long as your ok with being associated with the thing the place is known for then it doesn’t really matter.
The vocal group of a place is it’s face no matter how big or small that group is.
Right, and there’s no one who supports Putin on .ml.
For a group of people who like to fellate themselves talking about “nuance” you people struggle with anyone who has a deeper analysis than “Putin evil, Russians are orcs, Russia is Mordor, Europe is full of elves, zelensky is Aragorn”. It makes you see red and go “OH SO YOU LOVE PUTIN??? WOWWWW”
🧢🧢🧢
What?
It means your statement is bs
Ask the typical tankie from ml or hexbear whether they agree that Putin should face his criminal charges at the ICC and is just as much a war criminal as Bibi and that they were wrong to invade Ukraine and wage an attempted genocide, and whether China and North Korea are also complicit in genocide for supporting Russia’s illegal invasion. I bet the majority dodge the straightforward question with what should be a straightforward answer.
Don’t be dismayed by conglomeration of either young and naive kool-aid drinkers, or the actual foreign operatives (for which we know have major online troll farms).
EDIT: Case in point, lol.
Well its not one question, its a bunch lumped together.
Sure
No. Israel is enacting an actual genocide against a defenceless population, the genocide has been going on since 1947 and has drastically accelerated these last few years.
While there are many accusations of genocide against Russia, its pretty clear (as has been thoroughly investigated by international observers - whom have been allowed to investigate, unlike in Israel) that, while there are civilian casualties, the goal of the russian military is to win a war against Ukraine, not exterminate a people.
Honestly, this one is tough. I feel like it was wrong, but I understand why Russia did it - the NATO posturing, the brinksmanship, the constant breaches of treaties… At a certain point one has to ask what else Russia could do. Now I know how you’re going to take this “OH SO YOU SUPPORT RUSSIA YOU CONDONE AHHH” but really if you actually read what I write, then that’s not what I am saying. I am saying, given russias position, russias interest in remaining a sovereign country, the threat against Russia (perceived or real), the situation Russia was in was one where the only outcome given to it was invasion. Its not like it did not try diplomacy first.
Wait, aren’t you the zionist who couldn’t say Israel is committing a genocide? A classic zionist tactic is cheapening the word by using it to describe any hostile action. Im sorry, but between Russia and Ukraine, Russia is not the one who has systematically pursued an ethnic minority, banned the language of that minority, bombed the fuck out of areas with that minority and all that stuff.
Since I don’t see how Russia is committing a genocide (because genocide isn’t just “when you are at war” if that were the case then the Native Americans committed genocide against colonists in the 17- and 1800’s. I hope we can both see how ridiculous that is.) They are giving support to Russia, so they are complicit. Id like to know what makes the invasion of Ukraine less legal than other invasions before I agree on the “illegal” part.
Everyone Who Disagrees With Me Is A Foreigner.
This refrain of yours is so odd to me, because I never see you invokenit with people you agree with, despite the fact there’s also massive pro-us-regime botfarms.
Russia is engaged in a war with a near peer, Israel is committing an extermination campaign on Palestine using stolen land. I have no love for Putin, reactionary nationalist that he is, but to equate the Russo-Ukrainian war with the genocide of Palestine is to make a mockery of genocide. Further, such a blanket statement erases the plight of the people of the Donbass region, who have been at war with Kiev since 2014 and who want to join the Russian Federation. The Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics have just as much a right to self-determination as Palestinians do.
Condemn Putin all you want, I have no love for him as I said. Hang him if you will. But don’t undermine the actual plight of the many decades of genocide committed against the Palestinian people to “own the tankies.” You have a history of undermining the plight of Palestinians, this isn’t a new development for you, it’s a repeated pattern.
Agreeing makes no assertions as to the relative severity of the genocide (for there is of course always a worse genocide capable of being perpetrated); it simply agrees that both are war criminals who should be prosecuted relative to their stated War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity.
Seeing you devolve into Pro-Kremlin propaganda as any good Vatnik does, I am not surprised in the slightest. Defending traitors of the Donbass like one would the Confederacy of the US Civil War is equally atrocious. I wonder if you could even acknowledge that MH17 was brought down by a Russian BUK.
So in more ways than one, you revealed your hand in this comment.
Thus neutral audience take note as this individual is a case-in-point: They could not simply say “Yes.”
Edit: Fun little scavenger-hunt. Can anyone spot the other subtlety revealing their Russo-bias?
Ukraine is not being subject to genocide. It is a peer-near peer war. The genocide in Palestine is a mass extermination campaign. To the extent that Putin should be tried for war crimes, so should Zelensky and the government in Kiev, who have had allegations of war crimes independently investigated since 2014 when the Ukrainian Civil War began. Zelensky himself won his presidency in 2019 on the basis of downscaling the war, but instead continued pressing forward.
As for the struggle of the Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics, equating them to the slavers of the Confederacy is enormously farcical. The people of the DPR and LPR seceded not to commit slavery, but because the president they popularly supported was coup’d by the Bandera-upholding factions in the Euromaidan coup.
The people of the Donbass speak Russian at higher degrees than most of the rest of Ukraine, and thus the language laws restricting Russian also facilitated the decision to leave. The people of the Donbass have the right to self-determination, just like the people of Palestine. The Confederacy had no such right because they were separating in order to continue slavery, not because they were escaping instability and the suppression of the language they spoke.
The “neutral audience,” which does not exist as nobody is truly neutral, can see plainly how you undermine the plight of Palestinians and the people of the Donbass region plainly.
Ehm, nato?
Not in Russia, but in actual sovereign countries like the recent Venezuela shitshow (Vietnam, etc. - oh no, communism). Yes, I’m not worried about a capitalist organisation attacking a capitalist country, but we’re still supporting a corrupt system heavily influenced by the US.
Don’t feel bad about being downvoted. This community is a hotspot for tankie brigades who have a thirst for authoritarians, Putin and Xi’s wiwi.