i wish they had actually delivered things for people (other than bombs to the genocide) so they didn’t eat shit.
@boonhet@sopuli.xyz, see I don’t think they are being fake here. They have a point here.
Still they are not under siege, so its easy to keep your purity clean and say something is not good enough. Would a total stop to support of Israel be good? Of course. The overall tone is all or nothing; which surprise they got nothing given their tendency to walk away from the table and surrender all possible influence they might have, so they cannot even muster a reduction of aid to Israel.
Its not clear what their superior community engagement has brought to that or other causes. I suppose they could travel to Yemen and enlist in the Houthis’ army. For what its worth they did say they are standing up to Israel and taking serious action.
the people blaming voters for the democrats obscene incompetence are actively making things worse by refusing to learn anything.
Its a fair point, but also a self fulfilling prophecy. If you walk away from the conversation you lose your position. It is not a surprise that those who left got nothing. Or that when they return they have nothing to build from their previous success. Mamdani is a good example here. The DSA can point to his record for re-election and other DSA can point to him and say lets bring that here; rather than just abstract talking points.
Its okay if .ml isn’t the tip of the spear on the electoral front, but their disparaging is counter productive and damages overall leftist unity.
the “walk away from the conversation” framing assumes that conversation is a place where meaningful negotiation happens.
the democratic party has demonstrated repeatedly that left pressure doesn’t move them. they take the votes and ignore the demands, then they act as if they were always going to win and never needed you (at least until it’s time to cope about a loss, then we’re entirely to blame).
doesn’t matter if it’s for palestine, trans healthcare, minimum wage increase, universal healthcare, more often than not it’s the democrats calling the cops on people for speaking up.
i’ve said before but your vision of ‘left unity’ reads like attempts to discipline leftists, ie get us to shut up about things that make liberals uncomfortable and precompromise with them.
i’ve said before but your vision of ‘left unity’ reads like attempts to discipline leftists, ie get us to shut up about things that make liberals uncomfortable and precompromise with them.
I didn’t tell anyone to shut up. I am saying your surrendering an important part of our class war. Even Lenin said we should engage in electoral politics. We are on a complete back foot here and mls have a defeated complex about building momentum.
Like I pointed out. Not every place is fortunate to have a DSA or PSL, so we must do the best we can. Everyone who defeated imperial powers did it over the long term not on a blitz.
Even Lenin said we should engage in electoral politics.
i’m an anarchist, but i’ve still read a bit of lenin. in fact one of the polemics of his that i’ve read was ‘left wing communism an infantile disorder’, the text you’re paraphrasing.
his point was about using bourgeois parliaments as a platform for revolutionary agitation and exposing their limitations as a part of a workers movement. it was not about supporting bourgeois parties or treating elections as the primary terrain of struggle. invoking that in support of voting for democrats is a distortion of what the polemic was about.
Not every place is fortunate to have a DSA or PSL, so we must do the best we can. Everyone who defeated imperial powers did it over the long term not on a blitz.
this is exactly why i prefer to devote my energy to making sure that my neighbors can eat and protesting against democrats capitulating to republicans. i don’t see those problems going away after a successful election, even when democrats have a supermajority they find a way to do what republicans want.
his point was about using bourgeois parliaments as a platform for revolutionary agitation and exposing their limitations as a part of a workers movement. it was not about supporting bourgeois parties or treating elections as the primary terrain of struggle. invoking that in support of voting for democrats is a distortion of what the polemic was about.
And for that you need to build a little foothold. Which we lack in many places federal to local.
this is exactly why i prefer to devote my energy to making sure that my neighbors can eat and protesting against democrats capitulating to republicans. i don’t see those problems going away after a successful election, even when democrats have a supermajority they find a way to do what republicans want.
And you would have more room to do that with mid dems too.
And you would have more room to do that with mid dems too.
right now those exact type of dems are the ones having my friends and comrades arrested for protesting their capitulation. they are far more invested in protecting institutions and their own careers than listening to anyone on their left. the only real difference is that those dems not overtly calling us slurs.
And for that you need to build a little foothold. Which we lack in many places federal to local
thing is i’m in an area with a foothold already and i don’t see why we can’t expect more from these democrats right now. are we expected to wait until dsa/psl is running people for every dog catcher position in the country first? asking more of democrats in a deep blue state is not hurting their re-election chances. in reality their secure election position is exactly why they are so unaccountable.
thing is i’m in an area with a foothold already and i don’t see why we can’t expect more from these democrats right now
Well that is a nice point of privlidge that not all of us have, so congrats. As for the second point you should continue to prod and push them to do more. No where have I said dems win is the end game.
We are on the back foot and we have to live to fight another day. I’m sure you are familiar with the long march?
that is a nice point of privlidge that not all of us have, so congrats.
there’s a constant stream of trans people relocating from other parts of the country, those who can afford to at least. blue states have their upsides, but much of that goes away the second you’re unable to pay the inflated rents. i have way too many friends on the brink of homelessness and basically everyone i know has roommates, myself included. when i was on state insurance i was stuck paying out of pocket for HRT.
it may seem like a privileged position, but right now it’s just different terrain of struggle with the primary roadblock being democrats and their lgbt ‘ally’ nonprofits that have completely failed to meet the moment. instead of getting arrested by team red we get to be arrested by team blue.
my main point is that uncritical support of democrats gets us nowhere, they’ve demonstrated that they’re perfectly happy to throw minority groups under the bus in defense of institutions and their own positions.
i don’t think the CPC was being asked to vote and support the KMT during the long march
i don’t think the CPC was being asked to vote and support the KMT during the long march
No, the point is that they did what they needed to do to come out ahead. Regardless of how unpleasant it was. You need to live to fight another day to win. From where I am standing .ml types are too worried with purity testing to do what is needed. In this case it means voting dem where necessary.
my main point is that uncritical support of democrats gets us nowhere
Good news Diva, no one is asking you to be uncritical. You are being asked to be strategic.
Lenin said principled leftists parties could make use of elections as a way of gaining more popular support. The democrats are not principled leftists.
@boonhet@sopuli.xyz, see I don’t think they are being fake here. They have a point here.
Still they are not under siege, so its easy to keep your purity clean and say something is not good enough. Would a total stop to support of Israel be good? Of course. The overall tone is all or nothing; which surprise they got nothing given their tendency to walk away from the table and surrender all possible influence they might have, so they cannot even muster a reduction of aid to Israel.
Its not clear what their superior community engagement has brought to that or other causes. I suppose they could travel to Yemen and enlist in the Houthis’ army. For what its worth they did say they are standing up to Israel and taking serious action.
Its a fair point, but also a self fulfilling prophecy. If you walk away from the conversation you lose your position. It is not a surprise that those who left got nothing. Or that when they return they have nothing to build from their previous success. Mamdani is a good example here. The DSA can point to his record for re-election and other DSA can point to him and say lets bring that here; rather than just abstract talking points.
Its okay if
.mlisn’t the tip of the spear on the electoral front, but their disparaging is counter productive and damages overall leftist unity.the “walk away from the conversation” framing assumes that conversation is a place where meaningful negotiation happens.
the democratic party has demonstrated repeatedly that left pressure doesn’t move them. they take the votes and ignore the demands, then they act as if they were always going to win and never needed you (at least until it’s time to cope about a loss, then we’re entirely to blame).
doesn’t matter if it’s for palestine, trans healthcare, minimum wage increase, universal healthcare, more often than not it’s the democrats calling the cops on people for speaking up.
i’ve said before but your vision of ‘left unity’ reads like attempts to discipline leftists, ie get us to shut up about things that make liberals uncomfortable and precompromise with them.
I didn’t tell anyone to shut up. I am saying your surrendering an important part of our class war. Even Lenin said we should engage in electoral politics. We are on a complete back foot here and mls have a defeated complex about building momentum.
Like I pointed out. Not every place is fortunate to have a DSA or PSL, so we must do the best we can. Everyone who defeated imperial powers did it over the long term not on a blitz.
i’m an anarchist, but i’ve still read a bit of lenin. in fact one of the polemics of his that i’ve read was ‘left wing communism an infantile disorder’, the text you’re paraphrasing.
his point was about using bourgeois parliaments as a platform for revolutionary agitation and exposing their limitations as a part of a workers movement. it was not about supporting bourgeois parties or treating elections as the primary terrain of struggle. invoking that in support of voting for democrats is a distortion of what the polemic was about.
this is exactly why i prefer to devote my energy to making sure that my neighbors can eat and protesting against democrats capitulating to republicans. i don’t see those problems going away after a successful election, even when democrats have a supermajority they find a way to do what republicans want.
And for that you need to build a little foothold. Which we lack in many places federal to local.
And you would have more room to do that with mid dems too.
right now those exact type of dems are the ones having my friends and comrades arrested for protesting their capitulation. they are far more invested in protecting institutions and their own careers than listening to anyone on their left. the only real difference is that those dems not overtly calling us slurs.
thing is i’m in an area with a foothold already and i don’t see why we can’t expect more from these democrats right now. are we expected to wait until dsa/psl is running people for every dog catcher position in the country first? asking more of democrats in a deep blue state is not hurting their re-election chances. in reality their secure election position is exactly why they are so unaccountable.
Well that is a nice point of privlidge that not all of us have, so congrats. As for the second point you should continue to prod and push them to do more. No where have I said dems win is the end game.
We are on the back foot and we have to live to fight another day. I’m sure you are familiar with the long march?
there’s a constant stream of trans people relocating from other parts of the country, those who can afford to at least. blue states have their upsides, but much of that goes away the second you’re unable to pay the inflated rents. i have way too many friends on the brink of homelessness and basically everyone i know has roommates, myself included. when i was on state insurance i was stuck paying out of pocket for HRT.
it may seem like a privileged position, but right now it’s just different terrain of struggle with the primary roadblock being democrats and their lgbt ‘ally’ nonprofits that have completely failed to meet the moment. instead of getting arrested by team red we get to be arrested by team blue.
my main point is that uncritical support of democrats gets us nowhere, they’ve demonstrated that they’re perfectly happy to throw minority groups under the bus in defense of institutions and their own positions.
i don’t think the CPC was being asked to vote and support the KMT during the long march
No, the point is that they did what they needed to do to come out ahead. Regardless of how unpleasant it was. You need to live to fight another day to win. From where I am standing
.mltypes are too worried with purity testing to do what is needed. In this case it means voting dem where necessary.Good news Diva, no one is asking you to be uncritical. You are being asked to be strategic.
Lenin said principled leftists parties could make use of elections as a way of gaining more popular support. The democrats are not principled leftists.