If she went hard against Israel, she’d have lost a lot of voters. This was before most people recognized that Israel really went off the deep end. And she would have lost a ton of funding that was needed for advertising to combat all the right wing bs and foreign interference that effectively got the likes of you to vote against her.
Who said anything about “going hard against Israel”? And it’s not like there’s a report that contradicts your claim, right?
You have no idea how I voted. Op suggested that people didn’t vote for her for trivial reasons, which trivialises the real documented reason of expressly supporting a genocide.
Yes, it would have been. That’s why the anti-genocidists were against her. But the Democrats decided they’d rather lose to Trump, than stop supporting genocide.
I guarantee you’re wrong about how I voted. And why are you moving the goal posts? Harris stated clearly that she wouldn’t change anything when dealing with Israel and she wanted to make Israel the most violent army in the world, so it’s very likely that the situation in Gaza and Lebanon would be very similar. It was already a disaster when Biden was president.
There were more than two horses, but Liberals refuse to understand the concept of “not voting for genocide”, so that only left two candidates for them.
Look, we had pretty much a textbook trolley problem where it was objectively correct* to pick the track with fewer casualties. But now that the train has gone, we need to lay responsibility squarely with those who tied the casualties to the tracks in the first place.
(*One reason for choosing the other track was to give the democrats their own trolley problem, choosing between getting elected or leaving casualties on their track. And they chose the latter. Now we’re seeing more progressive candidates emerge so arguably it worked. Was it worth the cost? That’s harder to decide since we’d have to estimate the long term costs of a hypothetical scenario.)
But regardless of what the objectively correct choice was, belittling those who disagreed by trivialising their reasons or absolving the architects of the dilemma of responsibility is just wrong.
We’re not going to know if the accelerationist strategy of making the Democrats powerless to encourage people to elect Dem Socs will work for years. What I know is that fractally corrupt fascists are in power now, ICE gestapo are in my streets now, we are at war with Iran now, and Israel has accelerated its ethnic cleansing of Gaza and Lebanon now. Am I happy DSA candidates are winning? Sure! Was it worth it? Nah. New York could have tolerated another round with Cuomo, but can America withstand four more years of Trump? We’ve lost so much in 18 months, and he has another two years and change. (At least.)
I’m not trivializing people’s reasons for not voting for Harris. Those reasons, set across from the alternative, were objectively trivial. If your key issue was Gaza, Trump is worse. If your key issue is the economy, Trump is worse. If your key issue is privacy, government overreach, persecution of whistleblowers, freedom of the press. Name any issue and Trump is worse, and it was obvious he is worse from the first go 'round. It’s hard to treat someone’s reasons for voting MAGA or not voting at all as legitimate or informed when the alternative is voting for the worse option or declaring that both options are equally bad. I’m honestly more angry with the self-righteous abstainers than I am with MAGA dolts. MAGA is a cult. I don’t expect those people to know better or make good choices. The people who are chronically online following every political scandal? They knew better and they failed to do their duty as citizens.
Look, I voted for Kamala because lesser evil > greater evil. That being said, she did express support for Israel through maintaining arms sales and military assistance.
Like, everyone recognizes that Kamala would have been marginally better than Trump. She still would have been a bad president, just not a bad president responsible for fucking the economy. Status quo and all that.
Yes she did express support for Isreal - but not for Isreal to commit genocide. You might think it was a genocide happening at the time, but most people then saw it as them fighting Hammas without taking enough care about civilians.
It was after Trump encouraged Netanyahu to wipe out all Palestinians, that things got significantly worse. I don’t think Harris would have encouraged genocide. I think she would have even pushed back somewhat against human right violations eventually.
She would have pushed back when it was politically convenient, if it became politically convenient.
I worked for the DoJ under her. The corruption was there before her and got worse under her. She is not the saint you, for some reason, think she is. An important thing to keep in mind is that simply because they’ve been demonized by the right does not somehow make them a good person.
No, she’s not a saint. She’s a politician, and a high ranking one. The only way to get there is to be a backstabbing asshole. And yes, she would have pushed back on Israel if and only if it became a politically good move - which it is now. So that’s exactly the point, she would be pushing back now. Which is much better than what Trump is doing. I know life wouldn’t be cupcakes and roses under Harris, just a lot better than under Trump. And that was the choice at the last election which too many Americans idiotically didn’t see and are to blame for Trump if they failed to vote for Harris. That’s my only point. That, and the related importance of not fucking up again in future elections because a Democrat isn’t perfect enough.
No, most people saw it as genocide. She just pretended it wasn’t happening because it was inconvenient for her.
I don’t think Harris would have encouraged genocide. I think she would have even pushed back somewhat against human right violations eventually.
Biden never did, in fact, he openly supported it. Why would she be any different? Since when has Democratic leadership cared about human-right violations?
Maybe in your circles most people already saw it as genocide - but that’s simply not true for most most people. And of course that also applies to Biden as this was before Israel went undeniably psycho.
But I suspect you can’t tell the difference, and so you are just as happy with Trump telling Isreal to wipe out the Palestinians and build casinos in Gaza, as with Harris likely following an (inadequate) diplomatic push to respect human right. If so good for you, I’m glad you’re happy with the result.
Maybe in your circles most people already saw it as genocide - but that’s simply not true for most most people. And of course that also applies to Biden as this was before Israel went undeniably psycho.
You can keep saying “Nah, it’s not true”, but that doesn’t change the fact that it was true. It was pretty clear they were committing genocide.
But lets take your argument in good faith, lets pretend that Biden didn’t know they were commiting genocide: He still knew they were bombing innocent people, raping women, shooting kids, torturing, kidnapping, and starving people. Yet he continued to give them weapons, and support anyway. Is this your hero? the guy who raped women, bombed kids, and gave support to rapists, torturers, kidnappers, etc?
I don’t know why your so quick to defend him, but I have a few guesses.
But I suspect you can’t tell the difference, and so you are just as happy with Trump telling Isreal to wipe out the Palestinians and build casinos in Gaza, as with Harris likely following an (inadequate) diplomatic push to respect human right. If so good for you, I’m glad you’re happy with the result.
Well, if you had bothered to read what I’ve written, you’d know that I’m not happy with the result. I guess you are right, that I am “just” as happy, since Harris was pretty clear that she was going to do the same as Biden, and Trump. So yes I’m very unhappy about the result, just like I would have been very unhappy about the result if Harris had won.
She never had any intention to push for human rights, considering that she stood proudly behind Biden as he violated human rights, and made it very clear that she would keep doing the same things that he did.
Given that the options were Trump or Harris, if you really think they are the same, then you really are ok with Trump being the outcome because you didn’t care.
It boggles the mind that you would see them as the same, that you can’t recognize that even though they both are bad, that one is clearly worse than the other. But there we are.
Well, she didn’t have to go “hard against Israel”. She could have just gone hard against genocide, which was the popular position at the time. Also, how helpful did that funding end up being in the end? Doesn’t seem like it was worth it.
I’m pretty sure she was against genocide - she just didn’t apply that term to what was happening in Israel at the time.
Clearly the funding wasn’t enough. So instead we got the orange moron who encouraged Netanyahu to flatten Gaza and put up trump casinos. yay for that win, I guess.
If she was against genocide, why didn’t she say that? There were a lot of people asking her to. In fact, she lied about Biden trying to stop the genocide, and never spoke out against it when she had the chance.
she was part of the Biden-Harris administration when it issued a formal genocide determination regarding conflicts In Africa. She’s spoken against war crimes and human rights abuses.
But I suspect you’re not actually asking about that - you’re asking about specifically if she condemned Israel’s actions a genocide, and she did not. She stated that she wished the ceasefire would hold, and acknowledged that there was terrible pain in Gaza. At the time of the election, she, along with many others did not view the actions by Israel as a genocide. It was seen as an overtly unbalanced counter to the Oct attacks. One where Israel was allowing too many civilians deaths for targeting low value military targets. There was pushback starting, not enough, and not enough to risk losing Jewish votes and funding. Whether a Harris government would have limited the rampant escalation of Israeli violence that Trump allowed and encouraged, we’ll never know. Probably it would have been less bad with Harris, since Trump has acted just about as bad as it could possibly be - and if that’s what you effectively voted for, you are responsible for that.
So, when it cost her nothing, and it was easy, said it was bad. But when she had the power to actually stop it, and stand against it, she immediately backed down. Wow, what a hero!
At the time of the election, she, along with many others did not view the actions by Israel as a genocide.
Yes she did. Everyone saw it, but she refused to acknowledge it, because she cared more about making sure Israel could continue bombing kids, than she cared about winning the election against Trump.
There was pushback starting, not enough, and not enough to risk losing Jewish votes and funding.
Yes, there was enough. She just didn’t care. The money and risk of Jewish votes wasn’t enough especially considering that she didn’t win anyway. She knew it was a losing issue, and stuck with it. The polling was clear at the time, which is why everyone was begging her to call it out.
Probably it would have been less bad with Harris, since Trump has acted just about as bad as it could possibly be - and if that’s what you effectively voted for, you are responsible for that.
We don’t know if it would have been less bad with Harris. In fact, all evidence points to her being just as bad. I am not responsible for that, because I voted against that. The Republicans are responsible for that, and the Democratic leadership is responsible for that, since they chose letting Trump win, over stopping an easily stoppable genocide.
Everyone did not see it. Hamas was firing rockets daily at Isreali civilians. If someone was firing rockets at my family, I’d want my government to try to stop them. War is horrible, it was war.
It was only after Trump actively encouraged Netanyahu to ‘wipe out the Palestinians’ that it got much worse and clearly genocidal.
But if you are happy with that, you do you, I guess.
Hamas was firing rockets daily at Isreali civilians.
And why was that? I think that was bad, but libs always seem to ignore the part where Israel tortured, enslaved, raped, killed, colonialized, and stole the land from the Palestinians.
So yes, everyone saw it, but many chose to ignore it.
It was only after Trump actively encouraged Netanyahu to ‘wipe out the Palestinians’ that it got much worse and clearly genocidal.
No, it was like that before. Yes, it got worse under Trump, just like it would have gotten worse under Harris, based on the evidence that she herself provided.
But if you are happy with that, you do you, I guess.
I’m not happy with it, which is why I fought, and still fight, against it. But here you are, defending the genocide, and the people who support it. I wonder why that is…
And that’s where you fuck it up. No I’m not supporting genocide. I’m telling you that at the time of the election, many people still supported Isreal defending itself while condemning genocide. When you purposefully confuse the genuinely fucked up actions of Israel but in the context of a decades long struggle with rockets, suicide bombers, etc; with the present day actual genocide - you are both diminishing the current atrocities and also rewriting history on how we got here. There was a clear choice to lessen the harm that came to the Palestinian people during the last election, and if you failed to make that choice then no, you didn’t fight for Palestinians, you fucked them over. Own it.
If she went hard against Israel, she’d have lost a lot of voters. This was before most people recognized that Israel really went off the deep end. And she would have lost a ton of funding that was needed for advertising to combat all the right wing bs and foreign interference that effectively got the likes of you to vote against her.
Who said anything about “going hard against Israel”? And it’s not like there’s a report that contradicts your claim, right?
You have no idea how I voted. Op suggested that people didn’t vote for her for trivial reasons, which trivialises the real documented reason of expressly supporting a genocide.
We can make an educated guess. Thank goodness for Gazans (and Lebanese) that Harris didn’t become president. That would have been a disaster!
Yes, it would have been. That’s why the anti-genocidists were against her. But the Democrats decided they’d rather lose to Trump, than stop supporting genocide.
I guarantee you’re wrong about how I voted. And why are you moving the goal posts? Harris stated clearly that she wouldn’t change anything when dealing with Israel and she wanted to make Israel the most violent army in the world, so it’s very likely that the situation in Gaza and Lebanon would be very similar. It was already a disaster when Biden was president.
lmao. People don’t take you seriously because you say shit like this.
You’re right about that one phrase, I mixed it up with something else. She did state that she would continue to support arming Israel unconditionally.
Everything else I said still stands, and you haven’t addressed any of it.
OK well Harris sucks but there were only two horsies in the race. Did you vote strategically for the objectively better candidate?
There were more than two horses, but Liberals refuse to understand the concept of “not voting for genocide”, so that only left two candidates for them.
Yes.
Look, we had pretty much a textbook trolley problem where it was objectively correct* to pick the track with fewer casualties. But now that the train has gone, we need to lay responsibility squarely with those who tied the casualties to the tracks in the first place.
(*One reason for choosing the other track was to give the democrats their own trolley problem, choosing between getting elected or leaving casualties on their track. And they chose the latter. Now we’re seeing more progressive candidates emerge so arguably it worked. Was it worth the cost? That’s harder to decide since we’d have to estimate the long term costs of a hypothetical scenario.)
But regardless of what the objectively correct choice was, belittling those who disagreed by trivialising their reasons or absolving the architects of the dilemma of responsibility is just wrong.
We’re not going to know if the accelerationist strategy of making the Democrats powerless to encourage people to elect Dem Socs will work for years. What I know is that fractally corrupt fascists are in power now, ICE gestapo are in my streets now, we are at war with Iran now, and Israel has accelerated its ethnic cleansing of Gaza and Lebanon now. Am I happy DSA candidates are winning? Sure! Was it worth it? Nah. New York could have tolerated another round with Cuomo, but can America withstand four more years of Trump? We’ve lost so much in 18 months, and he has another two years and change. (At least.)
I’m not trivializing people’s reasons for not voting for Harris. Those reasons, set across from the alternative, were objectively trivial. If your key issue was Gaza, Trump is worse. If your key issue is the economy, Trump is worse. If your key issue is privacy, government overreach, persecution of whistleblowers, freedom of the press. Name any issue and Trump is worse, and it was obvious he is worse from the first go 'round. It’s hard to treat someone’s reasons for voting MAGA or not voting at all as legitimate or informed when the alternative is voting for the worse option or declaring that both options are equally bad. I’m honestly more angry with the self-righteous abstainers than I am with MAGA dolts. MAGA is a cult. I don’t expect those people to know better or make good choices. The people who are chronically online following every political scandal? They knew better and they failed to do their duty as citizens.
She expressly supported a genocide - really? Got a link for that?
Look, I voted for Kamala because lesser evil > greater evil. That being said, she did express support for Israel through maintaining arms sales and military assistance.
Like, everyone recognizes that Kamala would have been marginally better than Trump. She still would have been a bad president, just not a bad president responsible for fucking the economy. Status quo and all that.
Yes she did express support for Isreal - but not for Isreal to commit genocide. You might think it was a genocide happening at the time, but most people then saw it as them fighting Hammas without taking enough care about civilians.
It was after Trump encouraged Netanyahu to wipe out all Palestinians, that things got significantly worse. I don’t think Harris would have encouraged genocide. I think she would have even pushed back somewhat against human right violations eventually.
She would have pushed back when it was politically convenient, if it became politically convenient.
I worked for the DoJ under her. The corruption was there before her and got worse under her. She is not the saint you, for some reason, think she is. An important thing to keep in mind is that simply because they’ve been demonized by the right does not somehow make them a good person.
Case in point: Gavin Newsom.
No, she’s not a saint. She’s a politician, and a high ranking one. The only way to get there is to be a backstabbing asshole. And yes, she would have pushed back on Israel if and only if it became a politically good move - which it is now. So that’s exactly the point, she would be pushing back now. Which is much better than what Trump is doing. I know life wouldn’t be cupcakes and roses under Harris, just a lot better than under Trump. And that was the choice at the last election which too many Americans idiotically didn’t see and are to blame for Trump if they failed to vote for Harris. That’s my only point. That, and the related importance of not fucking up again in future elections because a Democrat isn’t perfect enough.
No, most people saw it as genocide. She just pretended it wasn’t happening because it was inconvenient for her.
Biden never did, in fact, he openly supported it. Why would she be any different? Since when has Democratic leadership cared about human-right violations?
Maybe in your circles most people already saw it as genocide - but that’s simply not true for most most people. And of course that also applies to Biden as this was before Israel went undeniably psycho.
But I suspect you can’t tell the difference, and so you are just as happy with Trump telling Isreal to wipe out the Palestinians and build casinos in Gaza, as with Harris likely following an (inadequate) diplomatic push to respect human right. If so good for you, I’m glad you’re happy with the result.
You can keep saying “Nah, it’s not true”, but that doesn’t change the fact that it was true. It was pretty clear they were committing genocide.
But lets take your argument in good faith, lets pretend that Biden didn’t know they were commiting genocide: He still knew they were bombing innocent people, raping women, shooting kids, torturing, kidnapping, and starving people. Yet he continued to give them weapons, and support anyway. Is this your hero? the guy who raped women, bombed kids, and gave support to rapists, torturers, kidnappers, etc?
I don’t know why your so quick to defend him, but I have a few guesses.
Well, if you had bothered to read what I’ve written, you’d know that I’m not happy with the result. I guess you are right, that I am “just” as happy, since Harris was pretty clear that she was going to do the same as Biden, and Trump. So yes I’m very unhappy about the result, just like I would have been very unhappy about the result if Harris had won.
She never had any intention to push for human rights, considering that she stood proudly behind Biden as he violated human rights, and made it very clear that she would keep doing the same things that he did.
Given that the options were Trump or Harris, if you really think they are the same, then you really are ok with Trump being the outcome because you didn’t care.
It boggles the mind that you would see them as the same, that you can’t recognize that even though they both are bad, that one is clearly worse than the other. But there we are.
Well, she didn’t have to go “hard against Israel”. She could have just gone hard against genocide, which was the popular position at the time. Also, how helpful did that funding end up being in the end? Doesn’t seem like it was worth it.
I’m pretty sure she was against genocide - she just didn’t apply that term to what was happening in Israel at the time.
Clearly the funding wasn’t enough. So instead we got the orange moron who encouraged Netanyahu to flatten Gaza and put up trump casinos. yay for that win, I guess.
If she was against genocide, why didn’t she say that? There were a lot of people asking her to. In fact, she lied about Biden trying to stop the genocide, and never spoke out against it when she had the chance.
she was part of the Biden-Harris administration when it issued a formal genocide determination regarding conflicts In Africa. She’s spoken against war crimes and human rights abuses.
But I suspect you’re not actually asking about that - you’re asking about specifically if she condemned Israel’s actions a genocide, and she did not. She stated that she wished the ceasefire would hold, and acknowledged that there was terrible pain in Gaza. At the time of the election, she, along with many others did not view the actions by Israel as a genocide. It was seen as an overtly unbalanced counter to the Oct attacks. One where Israel was allowing too many civilians deaths for targeting low value military targets. There was pushback starting, not enough, and not enough to risk losing Jewish votes and funding. Whether a Harris government would have limited the rampant escalation of Israeli violence that Trump allowed and encouraged, we’ll never know. Probably it would have been less bad with Harris, since Trump has acted just about as bad as it could possibly be - and if that’s what you effectively voted for, you are responsible for that.
So, when it cost her nothing, and it was easy, said it was bad. But when she had the power to actually stop it, and stand against it, she immediately backed down. Wow, what a hero!
Yes she did. Everyone saw it, but she refused to acknowledge it, because she cared more about making sure Israel could continue bombing kids, than she cared about winning the election against Trump.
Yes, there was enough. She just didn’t care. The money and risk of Jewish votes wasn’t enough especially considering that she didn’t win anyway. She knew it was a losing issue, and stuck with it. The polling was clear at the time, which is why everyone was begging her to call it out.
We don’t know if it would have been less bad with Harris. In fact, all evidence points to her being just as bad. I am not responsible for that, because I voted against that. The Republicans are responsible for that, and the Democratic leadership is responsible for that, since they chose letting Trump win, over stopping an easily stoppable genocide.
Everyone did not see it. Hamas was firing rockets daily at Isreali civilians. If someone was firing rockets at my family, I’d want my government to try to stop them. War is horrible, it was war.
It was only after Trump actively encouraged Netanyahu to ‘wipe out the Palestinians’ that it got much worse and clearly genocidal.
But if you are happy with that, you do you, I guess.
And why was that? I think that was bad, but libs always seem to ignore the part where Israel tortured, enslaved, raped, killed, colonialized, and stole the land from the Palestinians.
So yes, everyone saw it, but many chose to ignore it.
No, it was like that before. Yes, it got worse under Trump, just like it would have gotten worse under Harris, based on the evidence that she herself provided.
I’m not happy with it, which is why I fought, and still fight, against it. But here you are, defending the genocide, and the people who support it. I wonder why that is…
And that’s where you fuck it up. No I’m not supporting genocide. I’m telling you that at the time of the election, many people still supported Isreal defending itself while condemning genocide. When you purposefully confuse the genuinely fucked up actions of Israel but in the context of a decades long struggle with rockets, suicide bombers, etc; with the present day actual genocide - you are both diminishing the current atrocities and also rewriting history on how we got here. There was a clear choice to lessen the harm that came to the Palestinian people during the last election, and if you failed to make that choice then no, you didn’t fight for Palestinians, you fucked them over. Own it.