Thank you. If we deny 24 year olds agency we’re just stunting them. At a certain point inability to make mistakes just prevents growth. Little kids need to learn that physics doesn’t care that it hurt them. Teenagers need to relearn that lesson alongside lessons of how to interact among their peers and tired hold their burgeoning freedom. People in their early 20s need the full freedom of adults who can suffer long term consequences because even if they still had maturing to do that’s part of it. Rather than denying them agency maybe we should be building safety nets and saying “hey I get it I did stupid shit in my early 20s too”, but also those should extend to all ages because I’m still doing stupid shit in my 30s and I don’t expect to ever look back 5-10 years back and think I would make all the same choices.
So I agree it shouldn’t be used as an excuse, but in a perfect world it would definitely be grounds for diminished responsibility. If your brain hasn’t fully developed its decision making centre then you aren’t on a level playing field with those whose have. And it’s a fact that full development of the prefontal cortex doesn’t occur until mid to late twenties.
They’re just not at the you-ought-to-know-better endgame, neurologically.
Although neurons of the PFC are generated before birth, the differentiation of its neurons and development of synaptic connections in humans extend to the 3rd decade of life.
I did. But that link is just opinion. The studies are real science. The claim that all the research stems from it being the cutoff year is unsupported by the article in the link, which, again, is one person’s opinion. Weighted against the consensus of medical science, it’s just not very convincing to me.
Why do people insist otherwise2? Unclear. But it’s not based on any particular scientific study or claim. At best, it seems to be a corruption/misunderstanding of a few older studies into brain development, ones which mentioned, or only used subjects under the age of, 25.
… and those statements in that neuroscientist’s “opinion” are linked to sources. If you click on those, you’ll end up at this article which cites scholars and references the studies where people got this myth from:
I did.
That Slate article argues that there’s nothing special about the age of 25, not that brains are still in development at that age.
If you can’t find a scholarly, reliable source for your claim that our brains are fully developed at 25, then I’m afraid you’re not going to convince me. The reason for that is this: I’m not hubristic enough to believe I know better than the field of neuroscience, and I’m not credulous enough to believe one person’s opinion that they do.
Nothing you have shown me contradicts the fact that the prefrontal cortex isn’t fully developed in people in their early twenties. In fact your latest source repeats the claim multiple times.
for your claim that our brains are fully developed at 25
That’s the opposite of my claim. The claim is that there’s no such thing as “fully developed”. Development is continous throughout our whole lives. There’s no “line” at 25. You could just as well use 20 or 30. Or 5. Or 50.
I know better than the field of neuroscience
Your issue is that you believe that the field of neuroscience claims something it doesn’t. You’ve been given plenty of sources with quotes from neuroscientists on exactly how that myth came to be.
for your claim that our brains are fully developed at 25
That’s the opposite of my claim. The claim is that there’s no such thing as “fully developed”. Development is continous throughout our whole lives. There’s no “line” at 25. You could just as well use 20 or 30. Or 5. Or 50.
I know better than the field of neuroscience
Your issue is that you believe that the field of neuroscience claims something it doesn’t. You’ve been given plenty of sources with quotes from neuroscientists on exactly how that myth came to be.
I think that was a good read. I think the problem I have is that if I look back at my 20 year old self or my 23-year-old self, I see someone that was extremely self assured but had almost 0 real world experience or context for decision-making about very important things.
I think it is disingenuous to absolve them of all blame, but I don’t think it’s inappropriate to say that it’s not surprising that they are young men given how easy it would be for someone who should be a role model to influence them. Elon Musk’s team is young so he can control them
That’s just growing and maturing as a person. You’re never supposed to stop.
I agree it’s insane to put people that young in charge of the government, but it’s not biology, it’s inexperience. It’s the same reason you don’t put someone who just graduated college in charge of projects with life or death consequences regardless of whether they’re 22 or 52.
You need to follow @garwboy@ohai.social
Start here: https://ohai.social/@Garwboy/113944647175536159
Thank you. If we deny 24 year olds agency we’re just stunting them. At a certain point inability to make mistakes just prevents growth. Little kids need to learn that physics doesn’t care that it hurt them. Teenagers need to relearn that lesson alongside lessons of how to interact among their peers and tired hold their burgeoning freedom. People in their early 20s need the full freedom of adults who can suffer long term consequences because even if they still had maturing to do that’s part of it. Rather than denying them agency maybe we should be building safety nets and saying “hey I get it I did stupid shit in my early 20s too”, but also those should extend to all ages because I’m still doing stupid shit in my 30s and I don’t expect to ever look back 5-10 years back and think I would make all the same choices.
So I agree it shouldn’t be used as an excuse, but in a perfect world it would definitely be grounds for diminished responsibility. If your brain hasn’t fully developed its decision making centre then you aren’t on a level playing field with those whose have. And it’s a fact that full development of the prefontal cortex doesn’t occur until mid to late twenties. They’re just not at the you-ought-to-know-better endgame, neurologically.
No, it’s not a fact. That’s the whole point.
So what kind of source would you accept?
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-021-01137-9
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3621648/#%3A~%3Atext=The+development+and+maturation+of+the+prefrontal+cortex+occurs+primarily%2Cthe+age+of+25+years.
https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-teen-brain-7-things-to-know
It seems to me that there is a scientific consensus on the subject.
Maybe read the link I posted? All the research on “25 years” stems from that being the cutoff year. The same developments continue throughout life.
I did. But that link is just opinion. The studies are real science. The claim that all the research stems from it being the cutoff year is unsupported by the article in the link, which, again, is one person’s opinion. Weighted against the consensus of medical science, it’s just not very convincing to me.
No, you didn’t.
… and those statements in that neuroscientist’s “opinion” are linked to sources. If you click on those, you’ll end up at this article which cites scholars and references the studies where people got this myth from:
https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/brain-development-25-year-old-mature-myth.html
Enjoy learning something new with your ever changing brain.
I did.
That Slate article argues that there’s nothing special about the age of 25, not that brains are still in development at that age.
If you can’t find a scholarly, reliable source for your claim that our brains are fully developed at 25, then I’m afraid you’re not going to convince me. The reason for that is this: I’m not hubristic enough to believe I know better than the field of neuroscience, and I’m not credulous enough to believe one person’s opinion that they do.
Nothing you have shown me contradicts the fact that the prefrontal cortex isn’t fully developed in people in their early twenties. In fact your latest source repeats the claim multiple times.
That’s the opposite of my claim. The claim is that there’s no such thing as “fully developed”. Development is continous throughout our whole lives. There’s no “line” at 25. You could just as well use 20 or 30. Or 5. Or 50.
Your issue is that you believe that the field of neuroscience claims something it doesn’t. You’ve been given plenty of sources with quotes from neuroscientists on exactly how that myth came to be.
You still choose to believe the myth.
That’s the opposite of my claim. The claim is that there’s no such thing as “fully developed”. Development is continous throughout our whole lives. There’s no “line” at 25. You could just as well use 20 or 30. Or 5. Or 50.
Your issue is that you believe that the field of neuroscience claims something it doesn’t. You’ve been given plenty of sources with quotes from neuroscientists on exactly how that myth came to be.
You still choose to believe the myth.
I think that was a good read. I think the problem I have is that if I look back at my 20 year old self or my 23-year-old self, I see someone that was extremely self assured but had almost 0 real world experience or context for decision-making about very important things.
I think it is disingenuous to absolve them of all blame, but I don’t think it’s inappropriate to say that it’s not surprising that they are young men given how easy it would be for someone who should be a role model to influence them. Elon Musk’s team is young so he can control them
That’s just growing and maturing as a person. You’re never supposed to stop.
I agree it’s insane to put people that young in charge of the government, but it’s not biology, it’s inexperience. It’s the same reason you don’t put someone who just graduated college in charge of projects with life or death consequences regardless of whether they’re 22 or 52.
That feeling never goes away. I’m 50 and consider the 40yo me to have lacked plenty.
Any line thus becomes quite arbitrary. The point is that there really isn’t anything that supports the trope about “not grown until 25”.
I do not give weight to words spelled wrong.