For Context: I’m Chinese American, and I do not feel “ashamed” for my heritage, neither do I feel “ashamed” for being a US Citizen.

The CCP is not my fault. I do not feel any shame of saying I’m from China.

Similarly, the trump admin is not my fault, I voted Harris. I do not feel any shame for being American.

So what is the thought process of people feeling shame/guilt?

  • mojofrododojo@lemmy.world
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    7 days ago

    in my own case, it’s that I’ve (not intentionally but still) benefited from a system that subjugated others (natives, people of all colors, and women) to secure the national infrastructure I’ve directly profited from. Everything from education, clean water and housing, to medical care often shockingly focused on what ails and heals white males. And the sickening knowledge that the same ones who want to deport taxpaying workers who rarely benefit from the enormous amounts of money our country throws around are the same as me, living on land stolen from the people who lived here, who we basically exterminated. Finally, we use the trappings of a pseudo-democracy to declare all men are equal, but really, they mean wealthy heteronormative white men, because otherwise you’re the other and disenfranchisement should be expected.

    That’s-just-the-way-it-is? only if you accept it.

  • Invertedouroboros@lemmy.world
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    7 days ago

    Part of the social contract in America (at least… this is what I believed growing up here) is that we all kinda share in this thing we all have going. Like, let’s say we get into a war. The government can (and does) ask citizens to join the military and fight and the reason that works is because we all kinda implicitly signed off on it. Yeah, sure, you had nothing to do with the country getting into a war. But because you participated in government, in the system, because we run this thing (nominally) by the standard of democracy and consent of the governed, everyone owns at least a small part of the responsibility for the country’s actions. In the case of a war, that might look like joining the military and “doing your part”. More commonly it looks like paying your taxes and still “respecting” the government, even if it’s not the one you voted for.

    Now, like I said, that’s more than anything what I felt when I was a kid. Speaking personally, I’m in a very different headspace now as it relates to governance. I also feel like generally speaking all that’s shifting, though I’ve very little to back that up save… gestures at the past couple of decades of American politics.

    More to your question however, I think that the kind of social contract I laid out above kinda explains some of what you’ve asked. Even if you want to say it’s purely performative, that’s fine. But the fact that Americans are “asked” about how they should be governed implicitly puts the idea in our heads that we’re responsible for what our country is doing. It’s not just “some dottering old idiot at the top of the org chart decided this thing”, it’s we. America is doing this thing. Even if the truth really is that some dottering old fool made a decision out of personal ambition or greed. We get it drilled into our heads from a very young age that this is our government. And no matter how much you try to distance yourself from that… it still irks you, somewhere in the back of your head.

    Maybe, at some point before I was born, that was expressed as a point of pride. I could see some folks being proud of what America was or what it stood for, once upon a time. Now though? I find it hard to believe that that mindset could find any other expression but shame. And weirdly, I believe that’s true regardless of what your politics are. Different reasons are at play there depending on what your politics are, of course. But lately it feels like everyone’s got some grievance against the government. Some reason to feel ashamed about what “our” government, what “we” are doing. Whatever that thing is for you, you don’t want it being done in your name. But the central trick of American “democracy” is that you don’t get to just walk away. Whatever is being done is being done “in your name” whether you want it or not. And it’s been that way since before you were born.

    A tangentially related correlate here is that I feel like a lot of Americans don’t feel represented by their government anymore. I certainly don’t feel that way, and I haven’t since Obama was president. That was roughly back when I was young enough to uncritically believe some of the views I’ve expressed here. Things have changed a little bit. Anyways, the reason I bring this up is because part of what I think is going on is that the social contract is breaking down along the lines of nobody feeling like the government they have is actually representing their interests. Maybe, if this goes on for long enough, the social contract will change into something different entirely. Maybe this “shame” we all seem to feel will turn American society into something different than what it currently is, if it’s given the time to do so. But, I can’t really read the tea leaves on that one. All I know is things just can’t keep going the way their going. Something’s gonna break eventually.

  • SoftestSapphic@lemmy.world
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    7 days ago

    If you are from China then yes, the CCP is partially your fault.

    Americans are embarrassed for how America turned out, because they know they are supposed to have influence over their government.

  • thagoat@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    8 days ago

    It’s not shame so much as deep embarrassment for the current state of our country. We look like fucking morons on the world stage. Thankfully we will move on from this stage in our history, but the stain may remain for decades to come.

    • MangioneDontMiss@feddit.nl
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      5 days ago

      Thankfully we will move on from this stage in our history

      Any idea when? I’m pretty sure I’ll be dead before I see it.

    • halcyoncmdr@lemmy.world
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      We look like fucking morons on the world stage.

      The only sort of solace to this, is that many other countries are clearly following the same path, so its not something inherent to just the US. Idiots are everywhere, and they vote.

      Everyone is pointing to the US, but the same initial precursors are happening under their own nose.

      • West_of_West@piefed.social
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        8 days ago

        Canada has voted against the populist right for the last decade. And each time the Conservative party chooses some one more right wing. And each time they get a bit closer to winning.

        Trump galvanized people last time, scared them away from the right. This time he seems to be inspiring the right wing politicians, and people live it.

        I don’t know if we can hold out much longer.

      • QuinnyCoded@sh.itjust.works
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        8 days ago

        i hate when people shit on the US but don’t acknowledge any sort of solutions to put in their own country to avoid this situation

        • calcopiritus@lemmy.world
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          8 days ago

          The easiest solutions to the US problem are already solved in most other western countries. That’s why the US is the first (and at this time, the only one) that turned fascist.

          Legal guns are uniquely a US problem. Having a system that only allows 2 political parties is a uniquely US problem. Limitless (in the billions!) political donations is a uniquely US problem. Relying on the stock market for retirement is a uniquely US problem.

          I’m not saying that the rest of the western countries turning fascist is impossible, but it’s much harder. Most fascists are contained to their fascist political party. So until there aren’t enough fascist individuals, they can be mostly ignored. Of course, once they are enough fascists, the fascist party will inevitably win, and there’s nothing that can stop them at that point.

          • QuinnyCoded@sh.itjust.works
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            7 days ago

            A multi party system over time (decades or centuries even) turns to 2 parties, then turns to one. Corruption only speeds this up.

            Ranked choice voting (shout-out !fairvote@lemmy.ca) is a pretty good solution

            I agree on the guns tho

            • calcopiritus@lemmy.world
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              7 days ago

              That only happens in the US because of first past the post system. In European countries new parties with significant vote share are created all the time.

              In fact, in my country the opposite of what you say happened. First we had a dictatorship with a single party. Then democracy came and we had a 2 party system. No we have 4 major parties, in addition to some minor ones.

      • kernelle@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        8 days ago

        While agreeing for the most part, it’s painfully clear as someone in the EU how politics in the US empower far right rethorics everywhere else. While politicians in my country have condemned the actions of the US, the political landscape has shifted dramatically.

        Everyone is pointing at the US because their politics trickles down into ours, not the other way around.

        • Bronzebeard@lemmy.zip
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          8 days ago

          How is it a false equivalency? It’s the same exact people astroturfing the movements in those places too. It’s literally the same phenomenon

        • halcyoncmdr@lemmy.world
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          8 days ago

          Oh look a Canadian that can’t see their own descent into the far right fascist rabbit hole on the horizon. Somehow even watching the US, you seem to still be headed that direction as if it couldn’t possibly happen in Canada. Because… reasons?

  • Ms. ArmoredThirteen@lemmy.zip
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    8 days ago

    I feel deeply embarrassed about being from the US. It’s like hanging out with a group of friends out of necessity, later realizing they were all assholes, and trying to come to terms with the fact you spent so many years with them. I live outside the US now and I’m even more embarrassed to be from there. Every time there’s some culture shock my takeaway is either “wow how did I normalize this broken aspect of the US” or “I wish I was from somewhere that didn’t do those things to that person’s country”.

    I also feel embarrassed and guilty over getting out of the US. I worked in tech and now I’m living off tech savings to start a life outside the US. I left my friends behind many of them are struggling financially, I left my community behind many of which are actively homeless, I chose to leave. Sure I’m leaving in part because my trans ass is on the chopping block but I see a lot of trans people fight harder instead of flee. I fought for so many years though and I couldn’t keep doing it so I left. The US did this to my community, made me confront choices I never wanted to make, I’m disgusted by having paid taxes to the war machine, and I justify working in tech as a way out of there but really I feel guilty over choosing to buy into that side of the US too so I could secure personal safety.

    • KelvarCherry@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      8 days ago

      Living in the USA myself, I feel shame at how I normalized and rationalized the horrible aspects of this country. I’d already been a minimalist and was anti-consumerism from before I was an adult; but I had downplayed the severity of our systemic violence until it hit me personally. Above all I wish I was doing more to fight this system, like the people you described.

      For as long as I am alive I will stay in the USA. I’m not going to give up on holding out here, as miserable as I’ve felt this last year. I’d like to believe something I do may someday inspire others who are braver and have more resources to do something more concrete.

    • Corporal_Punishment@feddit.uk
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      8 days ago

      Don’t feel guilty for seeing the signs and getting out whilst you still can. Millions of people throughout history haven’t been as fortunate.

      Once Trump and Project 2025 is done with immigrants you can bet your arse the pendulum will swing onto LGBQT people in earnest

  • Crackhappy@lemmy.world
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    8 days ago

    I grew up in Indonesia, my sister is from Java, my brother is from Singapore. I’m natively from California, and I’m a huge white boy. I am ashamed that the country of the free, the country of the brave who had bounteous arms to welcome the downtrodden and abused of the world is no longer that place. Instead it’s the land of the secret police, tbe land of a pedophile traitor president who can’t stand any kind of criticism because he’s a fucking coward who dodged military service.

  • spongebue@lemmy.world
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    8 days ago

    China has been China-ing for a while, we get it. America’s actions are relatively fresh, and a majority of us DID choose him. While I’ll immediately reassure people that I didn’t vote for him, the fact that I have to separate myself from what’s going on comes from a sense of shame over that.

    That said, if I met a Russian I wouldn’t necessarily hold the invasion of Ukraine against them… But I might have to ask if they really support that shit.

    • NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io
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      8 days ago

      America’s actions are relatively fresh,

      At the risk of being annoying as shit, that is not true. The only fresh part is that Europeans and/or white people are feeling a small part of the heat too.

      • y0kai [he/him]@anarchist.nexus
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        8 days ago

        was just going to say this. anyone who thinks this is new didn’t pay attention in history class, or that history class conveniently glossed over or romanticized our many, many atrocities.

        • 𝕱𝖎𝖗𝖊𝖜𝖎𝖙𝖈𝖍@lemmy.world
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          8 days ago

          American education has always been a complete shitshow. Recently I realized that I never actually knew anything about the war of 1812 because the extent of what was taught to us in fucking NY was like a single page in a textbook. Unless you took AP you didn’t learn shit.

          I’ve learned more about it now, I’m just pissed that my education didn’t actually cover jack shit.

          It’s by design

          • I don’t think public education is meant to make people informed, one of it’s goals is mass indoctrination. It’s the same in almost every country. I’m fortunate to be one of the people that recognize that. Me being in two spheres of influence make it so easy to identify what propaganda looks like, I seen it on both sides, two different countries, how media, like tv shows, portrays things.

            They want obedient people to keep the cogs of the machine running. They want nationalism and absolute obedience to the state, the government.

            In the US, at least, there are a lot of reliable sources on internet, and also public libraries… but of course, poor people don’t have time to educate themselves, just as its designed. The lower class, different countries, similar story.

    • freagle@lemmy.ml
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      7 days ago

      China has been eliminating poverty for quite some time. In fact, over the last 70 years, China accounts for 80% or more of the entire global poverty alleviation gains. The US has created more poverty in that same time.

      But also, the US has been racist, violent, colonialist, jingoistic, misogynistic, and white supremacist since it’s founding. You know those propaganda images DHS posts on Twitter? Those are from the US’s time of westward expansion. This isn’t new. What’s new is that we have given up on trying to hide it, which is something we did for for the last 70 years. But even in the 40s we had concretation camps, we had open racism in all of politics, we had the second largest Nazi group in the world.

      And after WW2? Operation Paperclip? Operation Gladio? The US openly staffed NATO with Nazi officers. The US openly advocated for Nazi politicians to lead West Germany. There were literal Nazis running West German after the war.

      And then of course the Korean War. The Vietnam War. The Irag wars. The Afghanistan war. The embargo against Cuba. The coup in Iran.

      This is what the US is. Nixon banned heroin explicitly to imprison black people. We have slave labor producing billions of dollars in value annually. And we punish our prison slaves who don’t work by giving them solitary. All of that is massive gross human rights violations, things we’ve pretended to invade other countries for.

      This is who we are. It’s not new.

    • ComradeSharkfucker@lemmy.ml
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      8 days ago

      Considering voter turnout is ridiculously low in America the majority of us did not choose Trump. Just less than half of those that voted did which is 32% of the population. Also, Trump was not exactly the start of American decline, it is more like he is a symptom of it. A reaction to it if you would. American has been a violent an oppressive nation that we should be ashamed of for roughly 250 years. Trump is just very good at making that obvious.

      • Slotos@feddit.nl
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        8 days ago

        Not voting is a vote for the winner by default. I highly doubt that every single person that didn’t vote did so due to being unable to.

        • tree_frog_and_rain@lemmy.world
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          8 days ago

          Every comment like this pretends that our elections are based off the popular vote, and not the electoral college.

          But over a year later, liberals still blame non-voters instead of their party for running unpopular candidates.

          And voter turnout was good in swing states btw. Granted, I think Trump cheated.

    • MagnificentSteiner@lemmy.zip
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      a majority of us DID choose him

      77m voted for Trump which is 32% of the voting age population.

      As a percentage of the overall population it is ~23%.

  • BanMe@lemmy.world
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    8 days ago

    We were raised with “pride,” not necessarily racially or ethnocentric, but a broader sense that transcended such boundaries. I grew up in the 80s-90s in the midwest, and we were taught America was a “melting pot” of cultures, ideas, and races, and that we should look forward to a time when whites are not the majority because the lines will fall away, the average color will be brown as we all mix over the next generations, giving us less reason to fight. And we should look forward to it, because that’s been our story so far - broken, impoverished immigrants came here looking for opportunity, and found it through hard work and smart thinking, and then became a part of our shared tapestry. We were taught to be proud of this, that we were stewards of this tradition in the best, most advanced country in the world.

    And now, well. The basest instincts of people have been brought to the surface and America now stands as an openly white nationalist, isolationist, fascist-tinged autocracy where the ideals I grew up with seem long antiquated.

    So yeah hard not to feel ashamed of what’s happened to our shared identity in just a few decades.

  • gustofwind@lemmy.world
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    8 days ago

    I believe the shame stems from the moral injury we all suffer when we peacefully stand by in a democracy and let bad people control the government and inflict serious harm on innocents

    So in some respect it is in fact all of our faults because we do in fact sit by and watch people die so we can respect the democratic process.

  • nagaram@startrek.website
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    I don’t have pride in my government or its actions.

    It was actively causing a lot of harm for most of its existence and is now turbo charging its ability to enshittify the world.

    The LEAST I can do is make it clear we’re not all in support of this shit.

    Love the country and people though. Lots of cool forests to roam and lots of people who don’t suck.