ITT: People not knowing about Nietzsche Family Circus.
Antinatalism is cringe (and also fashy)
There’s various reasons for antinatalism IMO, and the two biggest ones are because people think they cannot (and never will be able to) afford children, and also because they recognize the suffering the children would go through.
Like, realistically, your children inherit a lot of your traits, and if you’re suffering in this world, what reason is there to believe that it will be different for your (hypothetical) children?
And also having children is vastly expensive. It costs $100K dollars upwards just to raise them to puberty, and that’s optimistic estimates assuming no future inflation. And then there is the whole uncertainty of the future labor market. So, would you rather spend that money to bring another suffering being into this world, or would you rather say “fuck it” and enjoy your own time on this planet instead?
- Emotionally-founded movement masquerading as ethically-founded
- Driven primarily by resentment
- Distinctly Malthusian
- Condemns a fundamental process of biological life
- Primarily advocates abandoning the world before improving it
- Adherents frequently direct their anger at mostly non-political actors
Yeah it’s disturbing that you’re getting so many downvotes simply for being bold in your stance here. I mean I do understand why… There are strong and often unexamined emotions at play here. But it’s still disturbing. Antinatalism isn’t eugenics but it sits right next to eugenics in a logical process. It’s positions on ecology and it’s emotional social resentment place it on a pipeline to fascism.
Is “antinatalism” some kind of organized movement or something? Because I think the reason that they’re getting downvotes is because it comes off as saying “your personal choice to not have kids makes you a eugenicist and a Nazi, kids are the best thing to ever happen to you in life and everybody wants them, even if they say they don’t.” It certainly came off that way to me, but I’ve never heard the term before. I just don’t want to bring another life into this hellhole of a country on this burning world that we continue to do nothing to fix.
@EldritchFeminity @infinitesunrise I’m not sure if it’s organized, but it does describe a specific school of thought that isn’t just “I don’t personally want to have kids.” Antinatalists generally believe that it’s unethical for anyone to reproduce. The core argument is usually that since you can’t consent to being born, you can’t ethically impose it on someone against their will. It tends to go hand-in-hand with misanthropic ideas such as that humans are destructive to the planet/fundamentally cruel or that life in general just sucks. Ultimately, the thesis is that humans should extinct ourselves. Given the current state of the world, it’s gained some traction amongst groups of people trapped deep in despair right now. (Which, let’s be real - there are a lot of on Lemmy)
Exactly. I don’t have ideological bases for my personal preferences, which I then promulgate to strangers online.
Have your heard of Cappucinism? A frothy espresso drink is the only kind of coffee to take with breakfast! I spend so much of my time telling others that I barely have time to wazz up the milk! Huaaagh I can’t stand Americanists, you bitter assholes are a crime against humanity. Might as well be intermittent fasters and skip the whole meal!
I get that hope is scarce these days, but hope is always a leap of faith. The point isn’t to make the jump, the point is to jump at all.
Thanks, this was useful - I hadnt unpacked this before
I actually meant to reply to the comment above you but I’m just as happy to reply to you! So I guess to add regarding what you asked about people using it as a guise for eugenics, I actually don’t think antinatalists are doing that, generally. Antinatalists aren’t villains, and I think they mostly mean well. They just have a lot of resentment, absent a fully matured leftist framework to guide those emotions into socially healthy advocacy. Which makes them sitting ducks for any actual villains looking for a demographic to coopt.
Choosing not to reproduce because it’s unethical to force more humans to live as indentured slaves under capitalism on this dying hellworld… is basically the opposite of fascism?
That you also consider antinatalism cringe though makes me think you either just don’t understand what any of these words mean, or that you’re an Overton centrist who’s just one little push away from becoming/owning a trad wife and feeding your offspring into the meat grinder to make billionaires happy.
I’m an anarchist and a trans woman but ok
Antinatalism is ecofascist eugenicist bullshit
From one anarchist trans woman to another:
How do you figure you have the authority to force someone into existence? Like, for real. To me this feels like the most selfish act possible. I can’t see any reasons that would stand up to scrutiny to have children other than “cause I wanna”. And yes. It’s forcing them. It’s not “a gift”, since a gift can be declined.
oohhhhh woe is meeee i nEVeR AsKEd tO BE BorN good god that’s cringe, all edge no point. This is literally 12 year old shit. And yes, your liking of eugenics is completely transparent, you don’t want anyone like you to be allowed to reproduce. That’s fascist as fuck
I know several new dads who would be absolutely livid at the thought of someone calling them “selfish” for what they’re currently submitting themselves to XD
A lot of us had shitty parents and find it easy to transpose those traits onto all parents. But there at least as many parents out there for whom it’s absolutely the largest sacrifice they’ve made in their entire lives. It’s them pouring all of their collected love, knowledge, and material means onto someone else so that they don’t leave this Earth having only taken from it.
And if their kids grow up anything like me, they’ll be grateful for that choice and happy to be alive.
You need to look some of those words up.
If you choose not to reproduce, that’s fine, regardless of your reasons. It’s no one’s business.
But explain to me how you pick and choose who can or “should” reproduce without sounding like a eugenics enthusiast
Good thing that has nothing to do with antinatalism then.
It literally does, you think people like you shouldn’t get to reproduce bc you’re a sad edgelord. Explain how that’s not eugenics
Again, antinatalism has nothing to do with telling people what to do.
Again, if it’s your personal choice to not reproduce, that’s totally fine, and I won’t try to convince you otherwise.
As soon as you start telling other people though that producing offspring is inherently unethical and they’re a bad, selfish person for making that decision, you’re no different than the so-called “pro-life” groups, telling people that they’re morally flawed and the cause of all the problems in the world because you don’t agree with the choice they made about their reproductive system.
The options with antinatalism are:
- No one reproduces and humans go extinct.
- Someone has to make a decision regarding who can “ethically” reproduce to maintain some stable population level.
Option 1 is unacceptable to me because it means giving up, and at that point we might as well nuke everything to speed up the process of ending the suffering that is life. And if that’s the outlook you have, I genuinely feel bad for you.
Option 2 is unacceptable because — surprise surprise — that’s just eugenics dressed up as caring about the environment or something. And when you and your loved ones are part of groups that have historically been forcibly sterilized at best and sent to death camps at worst, you tend to have a negative opinion about any philosophy that ultimately labels some groups as unworthy of existing.
You seem extremely confused.
Antinatalism has precisely nothing to do with preventing people from procreating.
This is like having a tantrum about vegans because you think vegans want to stop you from eating animal products because they think it’s wrong.
Antinatalism is a personal philosophy, nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. I have chosen not to procreate because my experiences have brought me to the conclusion that it is unethical.
You can go ahead and make more people or torture animals if you want, I’m not part of that. Neither the vegans nor the antinatalists can actually stop you, combined we’re probably only a few million worldwide. We’re judging you for your choices, but that’s about it.
If you genuinely think someone is a bad person for having a kid, that’s not an ideology, that’s just sadboy edgelord bullshit. Reproduction is not fucking unethical and you’re a fucking weirdo if you think that, and I say that as someone who only wants to adopt and doesn’t want to bring another life into this world. “waaaahhh humanity bad we need to go extinct” stfu ecofascist
I already didn’t like it, but you’ve talked me into liking it even less. Nevermind the angry arrow clickers.
What specifically don’t you like about it?
I’m confused. Please bear with me here…
I’ve resonated with antinatalism in the past and hadn’t clicked on to the deeper resentment underneath it, but I can see how it’s cringe.
If only ever seen it as a personal choice however, so couldn’t see the fascist angle. Do people really use it as a guise for eugenics? That’s proper mental! (and probably racism, etc)
only ever seen it as a personal choice
Some people say that it is unethical to have children or imply, rather than personal choice, that it is the morally correct choice. For example: the image in this post which describes having children as great hubris.
If the personal choice is only based on finances, I wouldn’t really call it antinatalism. Antinatalism is based on resentment.I think the fascist angle comes from its proximity to ecofascism ie “we should kill people because humans are the problem”. I don’t see antinatalism as necessarily fascist, but it’s absolutely inspired by the same desperate misanthropic hopelessness that hangs over heads like poisonous clouds. Just a useless philosophy that cannot make the world any better and imagines doing so as impossible.
