Guess what? Other forms of organizing and protest will also be opposed. And we should still do them.
If a movement is real and serious that organizing to vote in primaries is really not a big deal. Blue no matter who is really just a last resort and if you don’t want to then you should at least spoil your ballot.
PS anything you consider more effective than voting can still be done btw. Change is not an all or nothing (tho given the mindset around many here they should not be surprised when they really do keep getting nothing)
No no no, you got it all wrong. I have been educated today by people much smarter than me that you make the biggest difference by not voting. A vague revolution will then be organized at some point, and an utopia follows. This is clearly easier than taking over the Democratic party on grassroots level.
You should vote but upholding voting as the pinnacle of political engagement is silly. To change the system you must organize opposition to that system with support for a better one and that will never happen by just voting better in a system built for and captured by the capitalist class that have hegemony today.
Bad faith interpretations of revolutionary rhetoric is exhausting. No one is saying we should not fight for reforms either but that cannot be the end goal - it is simply a stepping stone to larger organization within society as it enable more people to get involved and, ideally, engenders class solidarity among workers.
All right, well please talk some sense to your comrades here who are actively pushing the don’t vote narrative. You probably talk their language better than I do anyway.
I’d also like to see more of that organizing and changing the system from people who dismiss voting. Talk is cheap.
None of the people I work with think you should not vote. That’s like annoying redditors who live inside and don’t talk to people. I am helping run my DSA chapter - organizing is all i think about to a problematic degree.
Voting is fairly low effort to do. Running a campaign is a bit harder, but that is also like a marathon. It does take some time to be able to do well. I see
.mlas someone who just showed up and wondered why they didn’t get very far.It does not bother me that they don’t want to join a party. I get it. I think their critique around the DNC is right, but they should still at least spoil their ballot. I do find blue no matter who to be a last resort type thing.
Beyond that I don’t see them organizing workers or communities anywhere. FBI is taking them down? I don’t doubt feds are going to be doing opposition. I don’t think people too apathetic to vote are going to be gung ho about a protest that could turn violent, or even just talking with the general public if they are having a crashout in lemmy comment sections.
And they could also kindly just shut up about not voting against Trump. They need to be called out, so that apathy doesn’t spread further.
This is a large part of my point. At a minimum it is low effort action. On its own its not a big deal, but people need small steps to gain confidence. Besides that it is also a call to action that got answered. This means other calls to action: sit ins or strikes, will have more credibility. The group has already shown some numbers at polls and its not just a hypothetical group.
Taking down the whole system? No push back from me. The attitude toward voting creates apathy around it which leaks to other parts of the movement.
Nobody has said that the biggest difference is made by withholding votes, but that organizing is far more important as far as action is concerned than voting. The purpose of organizing is to create educated, professional socialists that can then organize the rest of the working class, proliferate pro-socialist ideas, and explain core socialist theory, while struggling alongside the working classes in unionizing, protesting, and more.
Revolution isn’t planned in advance, it happens when capitalism hits crisis, and an already-existing organization is capable of taking the working class to smashing and replacing the state. That requires a party that is already widely supported by the working class for proving itself through struggle.
Utopia does not follow. What follows is even more intense struggle, but the establishment of worker control of society and the ability to direct production and distribution to meet the needs of the people.
The fundamental problem with “taking over the DNC” is that you cannot replace the system built to reinforce capitalism brick by brick within it. The state in capitalism is a capitalist state, it isn’t a neutral state that takes on the character of whatever party is in power, but instead a state that takes on the character of whatever reinforces the economic base of society. That’s why revolution is necessary, even if the DSA split from the DNC and won every election.
I fear the Republican party is way ahead on this one… And whenever they get power, they will reinforce their lead.
Regarding your last paragraph, I feel quite strongly that taking over the DNC and replacing the system is orders of magnitudes easier than organizing the “necessary revolution”, fighting it, winning it and being able to set up a functioning state afterwards. Rather than being crushed by the billionaire-backed army, getting millions killed in a bloody civil war and/or surviving the aftermath of state collapse, where Russia, China, Iran, Mexico etc. are getting involved to push their interests.
Who would the Republicans overthrow? The capitalist class is already in power. Further, again, you cannot replace the system from within it, it has to be overthrown and replaced. That’s why revolutionary change is critical. The fact is, the working class vastly outnumbers the capitalist class, police, and military. That’s why the BLM protests were so scary to the ruling class.
Overthrow is maybe not a suitable word here, but they would gladly capture the remaining pieces of American democracy. They would love nothing more than fully control the media, police (ICE) with no oversight whatsoever, courts, any possible opposition etc.
This is true in almost any totalitarian state. In Iran, perhaps 20-30% of the people support the government, but that’s enough to keep them in check. In Russia, possibly even fewer. In North Korea, almost certainly fewer. But it’s enough to keep the whole country in the hands of a few very wealthy men.
What I’m trying to say here is that the revolution you’ll end up seeing is more likely a one where the Republicans capture all institutions and slowly but surely turn the US into what Russia is today.
The capitalist class as a whole already fully controls the media, police, and courts, with no oversight. The Republicans form a representative body of one wing of the capitalist class, but this is not something that can meaningfully increase power through revolution. The state represents the capitalist class as a whole.
As for Russia, Putin’s approval rating is around 76%. In Iran, the population is currently rallying around the government against the onslaught of Israel and the US. For the DPRK, according to defectors, about 63% of people support Kim Jong-Un, so the actual number is probably higher within the DPRK. I think your idea of “totalitarianism” is underdeveloped, Trump’s approval rating is about 30%, which is much lower than the countries you listed. Iran and Russia are reactionary nationalist states under threat from western imperialism, which boosts national unity in resisting this. The DPRK is a socialist country under siege, which also boosts approval rates.
The US Empire is the one bringing people together in resisting it.
You’re reading too much praxis. Organizing is the goal - political ambitions can be reliably achieved only by organizing.
Spreading education of socialist theory? Entirely optional. People don’t vote in their best interests even when the topics are clear cut… Why would you expect individuals to properly apply these principles and reach the same conclusions? That’s just not how people work
There’s power in numbers. Humans are driven by community and belonging. Most people need to be told who to vote for, and for that you need to build trust and connection
Organization isn’t a step, it’s the end goal. It’s the mechanism that allows you to change material conditions and resist the corruptive forces that will attempt to destroy what we build. Everything flows from organization
The importance of spreading socialist theory is so that people correctly understand the problems of today, and that a solution is possible. Contrary to what you imply, I believe that the working class is fully capable of grasping what it needs to. I agree that there is power in numbers, which is why the task of a worker party is to align the working class in the same direction, and develop the class consciousness of the whole working class.
Organization is part of the end goal, but we cannot lose sight of the necessity of revolution and establishing socialism. Organizing is hard work, and to not study theory and history only makes it that much harder.