Vegans being banned and comments being deleted from !vegan@lemmy.world for being fake vegans.
From my perspective, the comments were in no way insulting and just part of completely normal interaction. If this decision reflects the general opinion of the mod team, then from my perspective, the biggest vegan community on Lemmy wants to be an elitist cycle of hardcore vegans only, not allowing any slightly different opinion. Which would be very unfortunate.
PS: In contrast to the name of this community, I don’t want to insult anyone here being a ‘bastard’. I just want to post this somewhere on neutral ground. I would really appreciate an open discussion without bashing anyone.
PPS: Some instances or clients seem to compress the screenshots in a way they’re unreadable. Find the full resolution here: https://imgur.com/a/8XdexTm
Linking the affected users and mods: @Cypher@lemmy.world @gaael@lemmy.world @gredo@lemmy.world @iiGxC@slrpnk.net @veganpizza69@lemmy.world @veganpizza69@lemmy.vg @jerkface@lemmy.ca @TheTechnician27@lemmy.world @Sunshine@lemmy.ca @Aqua@lemmy.vg
I (a vegan) got banned from there for finding the love of cows cloying. I said we shouldn’t have to pretend cows are cute to convince others not to kill and eat them.
It really isn’t a place for even back and forth amongst friends, “no conversation - only agreement”
One of the first communities I blocked.
Lol found out here that I had been banned from the community. Ty for sharing the information :)
Regarding the matter, I understand their reaction.
I’ve been interacting with some vegan circles IRL and some are more “hardcore” (not in a negative way) than others. When you consider animal exploitation as mass slavery, mass torture and mass murder, it becomes increasingly difficult to tolerate even light deviations from the all-vegan path.This being said, I would have preferred they had a better wording for the temp ban reason than “fake vegan” by which I feel insulted and hurt.
The “all or nothing” crowd really knows how to stomp on progress, huh?
Are you “all or nothing” with stopping rape? Or would you be okay with some light raping happening, if the majority was anti-rape?
They clearly view this act as something as abhorrent as we would rape, so why are you surprised they don’t want to meet half way on the topic?
Uh, because rape doesn’t keep people alive? Because rape hasn’t been a part of the human diet since before recorded history? What the fuck??
Take your bullshit whataboutism elsewhere. Holy shit, I have never seen such a bad take on the topic of veganism. I hope this is hyperbole and you don’t ACTUALLY think the two things are comparable.
Dude, are you just the king of bad takes on the fediverse?
Yeah okay “anti-vegan” (what douche calls themself that), whatever you say.
It’s like they don’t realize that by being this hostile towards any other viewpoints, they drive away people who might otherwise be interested in becoming vegan or want to learn more. All it does is harm the community in the long run, and then they wonder why there’s a stigma around vegans. That stigma then feeds into a persecution complex and that becomes a nasty vicious cycle.
Sorry but I think I disagree with that sentiment. I’d liken it to how fascists like to say that leftists annoy people away from the left; imagine thinking “well I disagree with using animals as a resource in the human endeavour but they’re just so mean/annoying/polemic that I’ll just keep doing the thing I disagree with”. It just seems childish and you should really judge a philosophy like this on its merits instead.
Is it their job to teach and convert you? Maybe they just want a space to exist in without having to work for others.
Nobody is forcing them to reply to a comment.
Plus, if they want more people to be vegan, then kinda yeah
Maybe what they want is to be left alone in peace?
I’m sure you don’t want Trump as president, it doesn’t mean you want to go around having to debate with everyone and inform them why he is bad. Sometimes you want to kick back and just say ‘Trump sucks shit’ and not have to explain yourself because you’re with likeminded company.
Maybe what they want is to be left alone in peace?
Right now they’re getting shit on specifically because they can’t even stay in peace among themselves. This is about one small group of vegans abusing their powers to stop respectful discussion among and between vegans.
When you consider animal exploitation as mass slavery, mass torture and mass murder,
… it is the time to speak to a psychiatrist.
Hello dear internet user,
It looks like you need to educate yourself on at least 3 topics before using your keyboard again:- why is it hurtful and not ok to rebutt other’s opinions by suggesting they are mentally ill?
- are other animals sentient, sociable and do they feel emotions and pain?
- how are meat and dairy products produced and how many animals live in this system?
Once you’ve done the work, we’ll be able to agree on the basics facts and exchange arguments on how we see the situation and the precise words we want to use.
Looking forward to engaging with you in good faith in the future,
Me.Hello dear internet user
It looks like you need to educate yourself about the terms like “food chain” and “what is the difference between food and humans”.
Once you’ve done the work, we’ll be able to agree on the basics facts and exchange arguments. Looking forward to engaging with you in good faith in the future.
Here I am fully ready to deep dive into some drama from a community I have zero investment in and it’s impossible to read 😩
Your instance seems to be serving you up a thumbnail of the image instead of the actual image. I recommend temporarily looking at the post from another instance, such as mine.
If I look at it from yours then it’ll be upside down.
Just flip your monitor. ez
This is super weird to me. Back on the Asian ass porn site known as Reddit I could just go into vegan subs and have casual conversations about recipes and cooking techniques. It didn’t matter that I eat meat.
After the API kerfuffle we all celebrated how friendly the internet can be and now you get preemptively banned because you COULD be a bad actor in disguise.
To a point I understand the frustration vegans have to live with. The constant childish trolling can be exhausting, but this is pretty much the worst way to handle this.
Lol, I got my vegan card revoked (declared “a carnist”) and handed my first fedi ban by the “Real Vegans™” too, for daring to call out their bullshit and ableist militant gatekeeping.
Good luck to them and the toxic cesspit they’re so adamant on maintaining, the last thing anyone should be seeking is these people’s approval, especially not on being a “good” or “real” vegan, since they make it crystal clear that their top priority is and always will be their own egos. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Generally very radical vegans also have a right to their own community, however I also think there should be spaces for less radical veganism as well. It seems that currently there’s none of those available, or maybe the general hostility of social media against vegans makes any of their more tolerant spaces eventually close ranks to protect their sanity. Unfortunately vegan spaces are constantly brigaded by trolls so it’s understandable they have a very short fuse, and a lot of people get caught in the cross-fire.
I think the only solution here would be for a new vegan community with a focus on debate with non-vegans. However it will be tricky to find the right moderators for it who either won’t be non-vegans themselves and therefore support a flood of concern-trolls and bad faith arguments, or be vegans that won’t get immediately burnt out.
So, last time people were mad that vegans were mean to them this community got created:
https://lemmy.world/c/plantbased
Edit: I should finish my coffee before posting, the only post there literally points to this more active com lol: https://lemmy.world/c/plantbased@lemmy.dbzer0.com
See: https://lemmy.world/post/23634881
We all know r/vegan exists and is a cesspit of carnists, but there doesn’t seem to be an actual demand for a ‘plant based’ space. I’m not sure why people would post about something they are kind of meh and not committed to?
If people are interested in just the food, there are communities for that:
I really don’t think the rules there are onerous. Just don’t talk about abusing animals and don’t be a jerk to the other posters and you’re good?
Hey, I didn’t make plantbased to be a less committed version to veganism. I made it because from reddit to lemmy every vegan community I’ve encountered has power tripping toxic mods and I wanted to provide an alternative space.
I’m fully committed to my veganism. But I also wanted people who aren’t to be able to discuss it without being attacked.
After I wrote this I see you’re writing from a vegan instance. I have less experience with there versus vegan communities around here.
The hardcore/toxic crowd do nothing except alienate and turn people against the cause and make people think being vegan means being surrounded by assholes.
It’s people like you that welcome everyone into the discussion that inspire more people to try it out; you’re bringing about the real change.
Lol, every vegan I know which includes a chunk of my own family went vegan because of militant vegans.
I see lots of carnists with no intention of going vegan talk about how militant vegans are bad but I have never actually met someone who is vegan and stays vegan that found wishy washy people motivating or inspiring.
You can be committed and firm on your issue without being a raging asshole about it at the same time. Most of the vegan communities I’ve come across don’t even talk about being vegan, it’s just finding more ways to shit on non vegans.
PTB. vegans deserve better representation in their leaders than this i hope we can get an alternative community that can allow discussion without weird purity purges.
Is Sunshine Beaver’s alt? If so then yeah i could understand why this happen.
I was thinking exactly that, she is certainly behaving very similarly to how Beaver did back in the day and is absolutely power-tripping now. If banning people who criticize the mod’s posts in any way is power-tripping, then accusing people of being fake vegans for disagreeing is absolutely power tripping.
I don’t know about this and I also don’t know if she is the one who deleted the comments and triggered the bans. In general, I appreciate her content. She is posting lots of interesting articles (not only in the vegan community) and I guess Lemmy needs people like her providing content to debate about.
Just if debate is not desireable, then I don’t think it makes sense to post it to a social platform. Social platforms without interaction and different opinions are just dead link lists. Then I can also just set up a RSS reader on the news sites I’d like to follow.
No dispute here, i’m just saying this sorta remind me of the controversy beaver kick off 4 months ago in the vegan community, behaviour-wise it’s very similar.
Your resolution is weak.
deleted by creator
Another day, another
dietvegan/carnivore dramaVeganism isn’t a diet, it is a social justice movement for animal rights.
It’s both!
It can be. I know a lot of the loudest vegans insist this is the only acceptable definition. But that’s not how language works. A vegan is someone who abstains from all animal food products, and usually all/most other animal products. Their reason for doing so is not an essential part of the definition.
You are simply not correct and there isn’t much more to discuss. There is an actual agreed on definition of veganism by vegans, created by the vegan society who created veganism and coined the term vegan to describe themselves. They created the word vegan for this specific reason, it didn’t exist before and you can’t redefine it because you don’t like it. The reason for doing so is absolutely an essential part of the definition. If they are not doing it for this reason then they are plant based and not vegan.
“Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.”
There is an actual agreed on definition of veganism by vegans, created by the vegan society who created veganism and coined the term vegan to describe themselves
Sorry, but that is just not how language works. One group does not get to define a term and insist everyone else uses it in the precise way they do. Words’ meanings are defined by how they are used. And the term vegan is used in the way I described all the time.
A word’s meaning can also change over time. Even if you were correct that the term was coined to be an ethical standpoint, that would not preclude it later evolving to have the broader meaning it does in today’s society. That would be the etymological fallacy. But in fact you are not correct about that either. The term was coined by Donald Watson and Dorothy Morgan, because they wanted a more concise term for non-dairy vegetarians. The first time the term had caught on in the wider public enough to make it into a dictionary, the agreed meaning of vegan was “a vegetarian who eats no butter, eggs, cheese, or milk”. You can thus talk about ethical veganism (which seems to be the only subtype of veganism your definition would accept), environmental veganism, or dietary veganism.
Promoting animal products isn’t abstaining from animal products.
“Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.”
all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food
Being against the exploitation of animals is the main thing that sets vegans apart from the plant-based folks.
Veganism is abstaining from animal products. The reason is immaterial. Repeatedly asserting the contrary doesn’t change that fact.
So you’re just going to ignore a part of the definition because it doesn’t suit your argument.
I’ve explained the definition here already. The definition given by one vegan organisation is not authoritative. Because definitions are defined by how words are used, not by how individual organisations say they should be used. I’m not going to keep repeating myself on this point. Catch up on the thread next time before responding.
I’m not undoing the bans as the comments literally go against the definition of veganism ie no animal products for the reason of ethics, serving meat options in an establishment isn’t even vegetarian let alone vegan. Words are supposed to have meaning or language is completely pointless.
The foods that are vegan and plant-based have zero animal products. It is not up for debate.
You’re welcome to post and comment in flexitarian communities instead.
The foods that are vegan and plant-based have zero animal products. It is not up for debate.
You do realise that plants get pollinated by animals, right?
And…? They’re not being used by humans. They do it out of their free will in the wild.
You’re gasping at straws.
They do it out of their free will in the wild.
That’s like bees and honey, yes? Do you eat honey? Eggs?
I don’t eat those. You have to imprison and exploit chickens and bees for those 2 things. Pollination is no way comparable.
Veganic farms don’t use bees and if they’re there it’s because they’re interested in some flowers or scent.
imprison and exploit chickens and bees
That’s hilarious, especially when referring to bees
Pollination is no way comparable.
Pollination is not comparable to honey production? Oh boy, I may have a news for you.
if they’re there it’s because they’re interested in some flowers or scent.
Yup, just like anywhere else. Chickens are interested in being fed and have a night time shelter where they be safe.
Great now you’re grasping at straws. Arguing in bad faith.
Bees aren’t murdered or starved for pollination that’s what happens under honey production by bee enslavers.
Laying eggs is a painful experience for hens and people who sell their eggs prioritize the production output over the living environment for the chickens.
Thanks for taking the time to comment here.
The foods that are vegan and plant-based have zero animal products. It is not up for debate.
From my perspective, that’s a classical strawman. No one said that food with animal products is vegan or that a restaurant that serves animal products should be considered a vegan restaurant.
I just prefer a restaurant that still serves a large number of vegan options over the average omnivore restaurant that has no or just very few vegan options. That’s better for me personally but IMO also for the vegan movement as a whole as it eases access to vegan food for everyone.
I went fully vegan 3 years ago - I don’t think it’s fair to call me or others fake vegans or flexitarians just because we have a slightly different opinion on a certain topic.
I would trip over your description “a vegan restaurant that serves a bit of meat” as well, because it doesn’t make sense to call it “vegan” then.
I can understand why someone would want to prevent the term “vegan” from being watered down.
If a supposedly vegan restaurant suddenly offers non-vegan dishes, this carries more weight for vegans than if some other restaurant tinkers with its menu.
You may have already advertised the “vegan” restaurant in good faith and now they’re stabbing you in the back.
The change also shows that the owners themselves are not vegan. And then, of course, you question everything: were the ingredients ever properly screened? What about the wine? Were the chairs covered in leather? Were the candles made from beeswax?
Just imagine a “vegan” restaurant that has an advertising banner for the elephant circus hanging on the door. Outrage would be justified. But they even put fucking meat on the menu.
“Vegan” is a statement. People should not tag it on their business if they’re merely coicidentally plant-based and don’t actually care for animal rights.
It would certainly have been more conciliatory for everyone if the mods had made it clear in the thread why they were upset about the comments. On the other hand, I can also understand if they were not in the mood for the hundredth discussion and would rather take the “easier” route and delete the comment. But I also think it’s excessive to justify it with “fake vegan”. You’re vegan if you leave your hands off the animals. Semantic considerations are not necessary.
That being said, it’s wonderful that you’re both vegan and that the topic is obviously important to you. Don’t let a loose string on the jointly pulled rope divide you. We have more important battles to fight.
Vegan btw
Serious question, not meant to be antagonistic. I’m honestly just curious.
Is the purpose of your community to simply be an echo chamber of similar opinions? Is debate not allowed, or having a different opinion?
I will never visit that community, but this seems like a wild abuse of mod powers. You do whatever you want, I don’t care and have no skin in the game, but don’t you want to foster discussion on your community? An echo chamber with other vegans doesn’t seem conducive to achieving anything, other than maybe a feels good circlejerk. The downvote button exists if you have a different opinion. A straight ban for not toeing the line seems like further isolating your view points from the greater Lemmy community, as well as entrenches the view point a lot of people have that vegans are hostile to non-vegans.
Calling other vegans fake vegans and banning them tho is whack as fuck but pretty hilarious
When I go to a vegan community, I don’t want to debate with carnists. I would consider that trolling. There are other places meant for debating. Vegan communities are basically safe spaces to talk with other vegans and people that want to be vegan.
Too many carnists troll the vegan communities, they created this problem. I first joined lemmy during the reddit exodus on a .world account. The vegan community at that point was poorly moderated and most of the comments were carnists circle jerking about how eating meat is so great to them. Finally, active people took over and it became so much better to actually browse that community once these trolls were banned. This behavior is nothing new btw, I’ve seen assholes on reddit and facebook do the same to vegan spaces. You’ll notice I’m no longer on .world, I disagree with their modding practices and lately I feel even more justified in leaving that cesspool.
I want vegan news, vegan recipes, and vegan discussion. I do not want carnists coming in, at all. People can come in asking genuine questions about veganism, but no debating whatsoever. I do not mod any of these communities btw, but this is what I want as a user.
It seems hostile to you because you have not had to deal with the constant carnist trolls. People who complain vegans are militant or hostile is a red flag for me, it really means that vegans are too unapologetic about their veganism instead of being passive people who don’t rock the boat or question the status quo. These people are defensive about vegans pointing out that they are consuming products made from abuse, rape, and murder. They want to be treated with kiddie gloves. Sorry, but no vegan is obligated to do so.
Thanks for the honest reply. I guess a couple thoughts I have on your response.
-
The screenshot in question was a vegan banning other vegans for not being vegan enough, so this didn’t seem like carnist trolls, this seems like multiple people integrated within the vegan community getting banned for having a slightly different opinion.
-
Is carnists a real term? I don’t think I have ever heard of someone who eats exclusively meat, unless this term is meant a different way
Anyway, sorry about the trolling you experience. I am personally not vegan, though I find the endeavor admirable. I think a lot of Lemmy and social media, and social circles in general need to practice a bit of “live and let live”
Hope the late reply is fine, I had a trip that wiped me out.
-
yes, the mod is being protective of the community. To you it is a slightly different opinion, to someone who follows a vegan lifestyle, it is not really vegan. Like at all. Vegans want to eliminate meat altogether. So if you eliminate meat by having a vegan restaurant, but then bring meat in, it is not vegan anymore. Idk what I would have done as a mod. Wanting meat at a restaurant is not vegan even if you are just trying to attract more customers so you do not close down. It might make more sense if you replace the word “meat” with “abuse, rape, and murder.” Would you accept a little murder, even killing children to stay in business? I get it is hard to get a non-vegan to try vegan food, I’ve written before about how my SO basically refuses to try vegan food.
-
carnists is a real term. It is:
“A proponent of carnism; one who supports the practice of eating meat and using other animal products.”
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/carnist
It is the opposite of veganism. They are essentially anti-vegan. They like to go in vegan areas and debate with everyone to try to justify their consumption of meat. It makes them feel good to troll us.
And yes there are people who try to eat nothing but meat, it is called a carnivore diet. I have a family member who is on the diet, they pretty much only want to eat steak. There is a new community on lemmy about it, I blocked it obviously. The mod of said community was whining about their stuff getting downvoted in their community on a different lemmy community. Judging by the amount of people (including admins) who hate vegans on lemmy.world, I thought their community would be very successful.
I get the whole “live and let live” thing about a difference in opinion on who the best character on a show you are watching is. But when it involves actual lives, I think it’s time to speak up. Vegans are annoying because they want people to stop killing animals for consumption and people would rather vegans just shut up and go away so they can enjoy their meat without thinking about where it came from, that’s it. Talk about veganism outside of a vegan community and be prepared to get ratioed.
They are essentially anti-vegan.
that is not what carnist means
A carnist is the opposite to a vegan, the opposing side. If you support the use and consumption of animal products, you are a carnist. If you are vegan, I am interested in how you define carnism. If you are not vegan, I am not interested in how you define it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnism
Central to the ideology is the acceptance of meat-eating as “natural”, “normal”, “necessary”, and (sometimes) “nice”, known as the “Four Ns”… The arguments were that humans are omnivores (natural), that most people eat meat (normal), that vegetarian diets are lacking in nutrients (necessary), and that meat tastes good (nice).
EDIT: this person is not a vegan and is actually a carnist wasting people’s time
-
-
Resolution is fine your peoples
clientinstance is just trashNot the client’s fault. The instance’s.
Cheers
Use some punctuation. I don’t know what you’re trying to say.
You’re still missing punctuation.
The vegan Community is actually quite shit. They don’t hesitate to delete your comment just because you aren’t a vegan, even if you agree with them in certain points.
There’s a word that describes communities like that, echochambers.
Shit like this is why I went back to eating eggs and dairy.
Also my (still vegan) wife took in a bunch of chickens.
Damn the dairy industry is the worst for the world too. Wouldn’t you say your morals are pretty flimsy if you’ll give up on em to avoid looking cringey?
No, I asked myself why am I spending more money to the same conglomerates to receive a shittier product.
It’s “easy” to be a modern vegan…if you give half your food budget to Monsanto and Kellogs.
Being an ethical vegan is damn near impossible in the modern grocery market. Especially if you have a life outside being a vegan.
So I can pay top dollar for some shit cheese that barely melts, made by some giant food corp…for what? To feel better about protecting the environment? Why? So that more hicks in Texas can roll coal to their nearest buccees to buy a liter of diet coke in a Styrofoam cup?
Fuck it. The world’s going down in a hand basket anyway. If nobody else is gonna change them I’m not gonna disadvantage myself financially before the coming collapse by eating inferior ice cream.
This is an Appeal to Futility fallacy, which can render any argument immobile. “Why vote, it doesn’t matter anyway”. “Why help the needy, my contribution won’t fix the problem”. “Why continue living, we’re just gonna die anyway”.
If everyone thinks along your lines, society and the world basically just falls to bits. If the world suddenly adopted my view, climate change is basically solved, the risk of zoonotic diseases (COVID, bird flu, swine flu etc) basically stops, the risk of treatment resistant antibiotics hugely drops, conscious feeling creatures aren’t tortured and killed for pleasure.
The worst Monsanto vegies are absolutely more ethical than the best meat, for the planet, for your health and for the animal.
I am super confused by your comments. It is cheaper to be vegan. I’m on welfare benefits for one person and am able to afford being vegan plus afford food for my non-vegan SO. Your comment about vegan cheese that doesn’t melt sounds like you haven’t tried more different vegan cheeses; for example if you want vegan mac n cheese you would make a vegan cheese sauce, not throw in a block of vegan cheese from the store and lament how it doesn’t melt. I have not needed dairy cheese for my meals, for burritos or burgers or anything like that and do not miss the taste or texture of dairy cheese. I also don’t consider vegan ice cream inferior, honestly you sound anti-vegan. Maybe you are just venting in defense but this is pretty much the language I would expect from my carnist family members.
It sounds like you don’t care about the morality of veganism (something I care very much about), that you did it more for the environment and once you felt inconvenienced you abandoned it. I do feel sad for you because not only is it cheaper to be vegan, but it can be delicious and you are not harming animals in order to do so. Do you still buy store eggs? I have a family member with about 7 hens and they still have to supplement with store eggs. The abuse cows go through for humans to have dairy (and meat obviously) is unacceptable to me. Yes, capitalism needs to be abolished, but in the meantime animals are dying by the millions every year.
It is very hard to get people to change, but I don’t think we should just give up on it. A lot of people do not have open minds about veganism, it’s gotten to the point that I hate bringing it up. And I am tired of arguing with my SO over it, that could really be its own post lol. I really only feel safe talking about veganism online, but that’s at least a first step.
