• LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net
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    1 day ago

    I understand that. They still killed her. Being upset about that is a normal human response regardless of her crimes.

        • The Quuuuuill@slrpnk.net
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          12 hours ago

          i describe the issues with the January 6 insurrectionists and the peaceful transfer of power within the republican (government structure, not party) state in similar terms to the paradox of tolerance. it’s a paradox of pacifism, or more accurately, a paradox of anti-violence. in a society that values non-violence, violent threats to pacifism cannot be allowed to stand. the reason this is is that pacifism is a social contract, not a virtue. we can have a long conversation somewhere else about that ashlii babbit and her friends did get one thing right: that the american system of structural violence will only ever be ended with a violent uprising that opposes it.

          the problem lies in what ashlii babbitt and her friends were using violence to establish. they wanted to end the tradition of the american non-violent transfer of power in order to give more authority to a central autocracy to strengthen the police state. this central autocracy and strengthened police state would later go on to kill Renee Nicole Good via the hands of jonathan ross.

          i can empathize with being saddened at the loss of life of a deluded human being. however i cannot sympathize with being saddened at a man defending the non-violent transfer of power killing a woman who wanted to intensify the structural violence of the system she lived under. ashlii babbit was not the victim of police violence. he death was the result of a desperate effort to keep a violent status quo from getting more violent.

          i don’t think the cop that shot her understood that the status quo is violence, but i think he understood that ashlii babbitt represented more violence than a non-violent society can be allowed to tolerate.

        • a_non_monotonic_function@lemmy.world
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          1 day ago

          Part of an armed mob beating cops and forcibly entering a building where the mob was chanting that they would hang members of the government?

          You are right. I’ve got nothing beyond that.

          • Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net
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            23 hours ago

            I mean, nothing was wrong with their methods. It’s what needs to happen. What was wrong was the reasons they wanted to engage in those actions.

            Cops deserve to eat the curb and the members of our government deserve to hang. I can’t disagree with that. The only thing I disagree with is that they wanted to do so in order to enable fascism.

            • a_non_monotonic_function@lemmy.world
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              22 hours ago

              I mean, nothing was wrong with their methods. It’s what needs to happen. What was wrong was the reasons they wanted to engage in those actions.

              I’m confused, are you saying there was nothing wrong with an armed mob invading the capital and trying to hang our government?

              • Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net
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                22 hours ago

                Yes. The actors of our Imperialist establishment deserve to be hung and the people are more than justified in revolting against it.

                What do you think a revolution entails? Do you still think our government exists to serve us? How naive are you?

        • [deleted]@piefed.world
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          1 day ago

          The most common definition of a victim is someone who dies from a crime, and the word carries an underlying meaning of the harm coming from something not justified.

          She wasn’t killed because the police overreacted or because they are trained to shoot first, she was breaking through a barrier in pursuit of committing violence and had to be stopped. Previous non-lethal attempts to stop the violence were attempted, and she was part of a crowd that could overwhelm the security. Lethal violence was needed to defend lives and therefore she is not a victim.

          This is not comparable to police overreacting with disproportionate violence.

          • LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net
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            1 day ago

            I know I used the word crime above but I don’t consider most laws morally legitimate so whether it was a crime or not is barely relevant.

            I don’t think it’s wrong to describe someone who was killed by another person as a victim. Even if they were guilty of horrible crimes.

            This is a conversation I’ve had several times. I think it’s very strange that so many leftists claim to want to dismantle our justice system but endorse the same punitive logic behind it. Maybe it was necessary to kill Ashlee Babbitt, frankly, I don’t know all the details. But she was killed by the police and that makes her a victim in my mind nonetheless. Killing someone is always a bad thing. Sometimes it’s just the least bad thing you can do.

            • Jax@sh.itjust.works
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              6 hours ago

              I think it is, personally, wrong to define someone who died as a result of their own actions as a victim. I think storming a building filled with armed individuals and expecting them to not use them on you places you firmly in the realm of ‘not a victim’. That’s like playing on a railroad, getting hit by a train, then blaming the train.

              I would not define someone who commits suicide as a victim. I would describe everyone left behind as a victim, but not the person who kills themselves. * For example, we in the U.S. are victims of the Jan. 6th insurrection due to the downstream effects on our current politics. Disclaimer: I believe everyone should have the right to end their lives however they want.

              Beyond that, I also think it’s odd to use terms like ‘good’ and ‘bad (evil)’ when discussing things like this. Is it ‘bad’ to kill a serial rapist? Is it ‘bad’ to kill a child rapist? Am I a ‘bad’ guy for killing a ‘bad’ person?

              Death is a natural consequence of life, we do not live forever. I think there are plenty of examples, naturally and fictionally, of why death is necessary.

              Edit*: provided an example

              • LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net
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                20 hours ago

                Lemmings love the downvote button way too much for some reason so I try not to worry too much about it anymore.

    • Gathorall@lemmy.world
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      1 day ago

      I’m not sad about police shooting Babbit like I’m not sad about Hitler shooting himself. She got exactly what she deserved.