• masquenox@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    9 days ago

    if you think Marx

    Marx can be forgiven for being wrong. He didn’t have an entire century’s worth of hindsight to inform him - unlike the modern-day personality cultists that claim him (like you).

    consider late-stage communism and anarchism to be socialist.

    Why do you have a problem with the working class controlling the means of production, (alleged) “socialist?”

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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      9 days ago

      Between capitalism and communism comes socialism, where the working class controls the means of production but there isn’t classless or stateless society yet. Simple. Communism doesn’t have a working class, because it’s classless.

      • masquenox@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        9 days ago

        where the working class controls the means of production but there isn’t classless or stateless society yet

        Ie, you understand perfectly well that your ideology precludes socialism even being possibile.

        So, again… why do you have a problem with the working class controlling the means of production?

        Perhaps that’s the wrong question?

        Maybe it should go… why do you despise the working class so much?

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          9 days ago

          No, I’m just not of the fringe belief that a state run by the working classes where public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy is somehow capitalist. I love the working class, that’s why I support the socialist system the working classes of Cuba fought and died to establish and protect, rather than telling them that they aren’t “pure” enough while defending themselves from the US Empire.

          • masquenox@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            9 days ago

            that a state run by the working classes

            Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - and you have provided zero.

            I love the working class,

            Really? Then why do you peddle an ideology that preclude the very possibility of the working class controlling the means of production?

            Or do you “love” the working class in the same psychotic way that the aristocracy proclaimed to “love” serfs and peasants?

              • masquenox@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                9 days ago

                Cuban democracy is comprehensive,

                And?

                Extolling the ways in which the Cuban state manages electoral processes is supposed to prove… what?

                public ownership

                You seem to be assuming that the word “public” is going to be doing all the heavy lifting for you. It’s not.

                Does the cuban state control the means of production in Cuba or does it not?

                • CascadeOfLight [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  9 days ago

                  The United Kingdom has a monarch, is it not capitalist?

                  Are political-economic systems something that switch instantly from one pure form to the next, or are they epochal changes stretching over hundreds of years?

                  • masquenox@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                    9 days ago

                    or are they epochal changes stretching over hundreds of years?

                    You tell me - the change from state feudalism to state capitalism was achieved relatively quickly in Russia… and then it took it’s sweet time turning into a liberal capitalist oligarchy.

                    It seems to vary.

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                  9 days ago

                  The state is run by the working class, it isn’t outside of class struggle but within it. The working class directs production, produces to suit the needs of the people, and maintains a state to protect themselves from imperialists and sabateurs. You’re trying to redefine socialism entirely.

                  • masquenox@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                    9 days ago

                    The state is run by the working class,

                    Are you trying to claim there is no party elites in Cuba, tankie?

                    Should I look up Raúl Castro’s net worth, perhaps?

                    Or would you prefer I don’t?

                    I have to wonder… if there is such a thing as a state that is “run” by the working class - then the very concept of communism must be perfectly redundant to you, musn’t it?

                    it isn’t outside of class struggle but within it.

                    Lol! As opposed to… what? Does the liberal world wage class war on anything other than the working class, perhaps?