After seeing a megathread praising Mao Zedong, an actual mass killer, and a post about a guy saying “99% of westerners are 100000000000% sure they know what happened in ‘Tiny Man Square’ […] the reasons for this are complex and involve propaganda […],” I am genuinely curious what leads people to this belief system. Even if propaganda is involved when it comes to Tiananmen Square, it doesn’t change the atrocities that were/are committed everywhere else in China.
I am all for letting people believe what they want but I am lost on why one would deliberately praise any authoritarian system this hard.
Can someone please help me understand why this is such a large and prominent community? How have these ideals garnered such a following outside of China?
EDIT: Thank you to everyone who has responded! This thread has been very insightful :)
Hey! Another name I recognize(but from much earlier today)
I’m honestly(heart to sky) not trying to start an argument, as much as an honest conversation.
What are your feelings on the Tiananman square incident?
I think the government made a mistake allowing the student protests to reach the point that they reached and they probably should’ve cracked down sooner to avoid the number of deaths that ended up happening. JSYK in the Tiananmen square itself there was a peaceful evacuation in June 4 1989, so strictly speaking nothing too newsworthy happened. The actual fighting between protesters and the police/army happened in the streets surrounding the square and that’s where a lot of people were killed. There’s been some useful master-posts on Lemmy explaining the specifics of what went down using accounts from journalists who were in Beijing at that time, let me see if I find them.
Edit: https://hexbear.net/comment/5032963
Currently sorting through the link you provided, but I’m going to be honest I’m intoxicated so it won’t going to be quick.
I’ll read through the posts, but can you provide me with an abridged overview until then?
In the week leading up to the evacuation there had been some clashes between protesters and the police. The protesters had been very violent toward the unarmed police, including a few killings and arson of police vehicles (there’s at least 2 images of police officers being burned alive in the days before the evacuation). To my knowledge there isn’t any evidence that the police had reciprocated in any notable way at this point. In the 4th of June the government responded to the killings by sending in the PLA to evacuate the protests, but because the protesters were pretty violent at this point it resulted in a lot of fighting, leaving a few hundred people dead over the next couple of days (with a roughly even split of protesters and soldiers/police killed).
Real talk homie, there is no way you actually believe this‽
Edit: real talk! You think the police(who have a monopoly on violence) didn’t come armed?
Again I’m not trying to antagonize you! You seemed well informed! But you can’t believe that honestly.
A lot of countries have unarmed police, that’s just how it is in much of the world. It’s not just a Chinese thing.
And yeah they still have a monopoly on violence and their presence is supposed to be intimidating. That’s a fair point and someone in the thread I linked brought it up. But having been to protests myself, I think it can usually be a good thing to have the police around because (at least ostensibly, the opposite of this can be true) they should protect the people protesting from anyone who comes up and tries to harm them. In a utopian society maybe there wouldn’t be cops at all, in a slightly less utopian one I think cops without guns that protect you at a protest isn’t a horrible compromise.
They are rolling through the place with fucking tanks! Fucking tanks!
Please, I’m asking you for honesty!
I really want to like you guys considering myself communist aligned/adjacent. But it hurts me seeing them running over mfers with tanks.
See my other comment and video that shows the tanks stopping until the road is clear.
It’s an easily verifiable fact that UK police patrol without firearms regularly, idk why you think other countries can’t do the same. From an oversight perspective it’s a really simple way to reduce the risk of police shootings, and it saves a lot of money on equipment and ammo.
Thanks for an honest answer.
Can I ask you about your feelings on the classic picture of the dude standing in front of a line of tanks with his hand up in the “stop” gesture?
I think the full video shows that the driver of the tank displayed a lot of patience and the whole situation could’ve been a lot uglier if the tank had done anything about the guy climbing on it.
Homie, I’m going to be real with you. That looks like he jumped on the tank and then back down.
I was asking you about the whole him being run over moment.
When did he get run over?
Edit: https://youtu.be/GRb4VY2dU4c I said I linked the full video earlier but this one actually shows some random civilians showing up and escorting the guy away.
Homie, there is still a line of tanks in that video you just linked.
I’m old AF and saw shit sir happen in real time.
No hate(and America is likely worse given our history) by you gotta be objective!
Unarmed police vs. violent students?
I am asking you honestly, does that sound probable?
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There’s pictures of the police and their vehicles burning, and there’s video of the tanks stopping until the road is clear. If there was evidence that the tanks ran over some people and evidence that there was violence from the government side before June 4 then I’d change my tune for sure. I don’t have a problem with admitting when a socialist country does something wrong[1], and as I said I’m already critical of the fact that the CPC had allowed things to reach this point in the first place. But I’m not going to denounce them for things that I have no evidence for.
Not to an American, I guess. But if the evidence showed something different I would let you know.
Here’s a simple trick: check the density of citations in a summary of the “Tiananmen Square Massacre” from a source that claims that a massacre actually did take place and more than a thousand people were killed. Then check the density of hard evidence (first hand accounts, pictures and video) referenced by the comment I linked originally. When the narrative is that the CPC massacred a thousand+ innocent people, you’ll likely get 3 pictures and a few quotes. When the narrative is that there were skirmishes between students and the government that led to a few hundred people killed on both sides, there’s a mountain of evidence.
For example, China invaded Vietnam to punish them for stepping into Cambodia to fight the Khmer Rouge. This was a completely unnecessary invasion and China should have absolutely never supported the Khmer Rouge. They also supported the Western aligned side in several conflicts in Africa and Latin America purely because they wanted to impede the Soviets. There are some legitimate reasons why they opposed the Soviets which is getting a bit into the deep lore of 20th century Communist history, but none of them justify using the Global South as their pawns and aligning with capitalist empire. IMO, even if the Tiananmen Square Massacre had happened, this would still be the worst thing the PRC ever did ↩︎
Hey homie, you’re the one that said “massacre” twice.
I was trying my damnedest to avoid that word.
You said it. No accusations. Just feel you should be aware.
You saw him get run over?
I don’t think I’ve ever seen that footage
:)