Yeah, we have to draw from presuppositions somewhere no matter what. I presuppose that you are a separate agent from me, aware of your own existence and all that, but I can’t definitively prove it. Can you describe what the distinction is for you that makes us “more” than “just” animals?

I mean. Again. We’re pattern seeking creatures that like having answers. We developed a method that updates based on new information, replication and peer review. I provided one hypothesis that I’m not even wedded to. I just think its an interesting idea. If you have alternative explanations or ideas I’m open to them, whether they can be tested or not. It’s just my preferred method since it’s more likely to provide meaningful results in my day to day life.

Again though, science is a tool. I’m not sure where you’re getting this idea that “science would say [spirituality is] useless.”

Also yes, there are studies showing some respond positively. Not everyone. I turned to atheism after decades of screaming to a god that I’ve determined doesn’t exist to help me — so yeah, it’s useless and was even negative in effect for me. But there are hypotheses that holding affirmative beliefs on it has been an evolutionary trait passed down to help the species survive, because we like having answers and what happens after death can’t be answered. Which goes to your point about how we can’t necessarily find evidence for everything we might have questions on. If we can’t find answers we may make things up to quell the discomfort the lack of one can bring to maintain reason to keep living.

Yoo I’ve been all up in this thread recommending them. Last I checked they use REBT, which is a kind of precursor to CBT. I didn’t find it the most effective, but I joined a DBT skills group and am making my way through a year long program for that and have found it very helpful. I’m trying to address a lot more than substance abuse, though. Its considered more gold standard treatment for chronic suicidality or people struggling with borderline personality.

I’ve already mentioned this in another comment, but SMART Recovery is a secular alternative that does host virtual sessions if anyone’s looking and can’t find something local. They’re pretty well established in multiple countries now. They’ve also got the website and mobile app with evidence based skills. DBT also has skills targeting addiction. The main reason I think AA can be effective (though its less than a coin flip chance iirc) is due to the community aspect.

I’m confused what you’re saying science would say is useless. Having meaning? Cuz that’s well supported in psychology. There are many ways to develop meaning in our lives. Science is just a method that helps us figure out what is effective. Spirituality can be effective in helping to form meaning, sure, but people need alternatives if or when it fails.

Having community support to hold each other accountable is a massive barrier for many people struggling with addiction. The term codependency was coined in addiction recovery research — not in the way its often colloquially used, though. People dependent on substances very likely have someone that is codependent around them enabling that addiction. Some programs like SMART Recovery specifically host separate meetings for family and friends of people seeking treatment to break down those dynamics.

For some, AA is the only option out there, but I do suggest people looking for secular options to check out SMART Recovery. They have workbooks and a mobile app that include evidence based skills, but if someone’s in need of an in-person community and doesn’t have any alternatives around them, I think it’s reasonable to support them in going to AA, if only to check it out and see what the particular groups are like. Another commenter in this thread (BanMe) shared their experience in finding a group that was filled with atheists, so, they’re not all submitting to Jesus

Also want to throw out there for anyone curious about specific skills, DBT also has quite a few centered around distress tolerance, mindfulness and emotional regulation. They’re helpful in quite a few areas outside of addiction, but DBT is considered like gold standard treatment for people with chronic suicidality. It’s not effective for everyone, though. There’s no one model that will work for everyone. Treatment for mental health, substance abuse included, is highly individualized and has many factors in how each model might be effective or not.

There are secular alternatives. SMART Recovery is secular and can be used in place of AA if a substance abuse program is court ordered AFAIK. I attended a few meetings on my own and had a few people that were court ordered show up there

I just did a short intensive outpatient trauma program where one woman just kept bringing up her faith in a way like “I listen to the top 40 christian hymns to regulate, you should too!” and I was losing my fucking mind. I don’t mind hearing about other people’s faith, but I do when its pushed on me as if I didn’t spend 25+ years screaming at their god begging for help with no answers. I am working toward the mindset you’ve described here, though. I’m saving your comment and pinning it in my journal — thank you

Iiiit can be risky following those impulses, like retraumatizing rather than healing. So… kinda? I say while currently binging true crime lol

Would you mind helping me understand

Hang on. Am I misunderstanding, cuz this comes across to me like “oh you don’t like capitalism yet have an iphone?” I don’t even personally use Twitter but I get why people do, even when they hate the dude.

I was gonna say something similar, like the amount of times I’ve wanted to look into some political topics and seeing comments encouraging violence make it hard for me to feel motivated just to stay informed. I get being angry, but damn, cue Mr. Rogers “what do we do with the mad that we feel?”

Thats part of what made me keep watching. It’s almost masochistic. Walts character going further into the narcissistic abuse with each season is horrifying to me, but it’s also so well written through that psychological lens that it fascinates me.

The difference between that and BCS for me was mostly that there was a ton more back story to see how Jimmy’s psychology developed. I had a lot more sympathy for him.

Both are interesting to me in the sense of how TV shows were starting to pivot away from these more traditional perfect protagonists into complex mixtures of horrible people that I still wanted to root for. But again, masochistic for me, cuz I want to see the good in everyone — and that has come at the cost of understanding when I need to set boundaries and walk away irl. I like to tell myself its like exposure therapy when in reality I need professional therapy 💀

BuT hEr EmAiLs

What about him do you like more than Jasmine? She’s a fuckin firecracker. I love her. Never heard of this other dude.

I’m very much lost on the context of this and the meme. We talking Hillary? Shes been accused of this, or the survivor knew Hillary witnessed it???

See if you have a local household hazardous waste recycling program. If not, check with the fire department if they’ll take em

Of course silly, otherwise that would mean money spent on undesirables

Va-poo rub