The presense of Commodity production does not mean the system is Capitalist.
The first sentence of Capital:
The wealth of those societies in which the capitalist mode of production prevails, presents itself
as “an immense accumulation of commodities,”1 its unit being a single commodity.
I swear to god ultras are more interested in the sort of masturbatory philosophising of categories than it actually producing any useful insights.
It’s the most anti Marxist thing to insist that a thing has to be only a singular thing with a concrete and rigid definition, it’s like Marx didn’t bludgeon you with dialectical materialism hard enough on practically every work of his. He spends decades insisting on the dialectical process and the necessary work to resolve contradiction through material means, which is an integral part of development, only for y’all to go “but this is vaguely like thing, how can it be other thing?”
Man said communism and the abolishment of the commodity form, of private property, the development of the productive forces, couldn’t be achieved overnight, and every ultra went “but it’s already been overnight, so now it can be, right?”
China has all the elements of a capitalist mode of production
It does when you ignore all the material differences. A state where the biggest capital holders are regularly punished if they break the law or step out of line politically is not a state where capital has final say.
There’s been no counter revolution in China, the organs of proletarian power remain in place even as reforms have been undertaken in every facet of life in China. It is the utmost chauvinism to pretend to know better than the biggest communist party in the world where even local officials are required to study Marxism diligently. Being really confident and having misunderstood Das Kapital to be a prescriptivist economical taxonomy doesn’t make you an authority on Marxism. Applying that shit is what does.
are regularly punished if they break the law or step out of line politically is not a state where capital has final say.
The state are capitalists, they employ workers in state enterprises and pay them a wage in exchange for their labor. They are just a different aristocratic rank then the private capitalists
There’s been no counter revolution in China, the organs of proletarian power remain in place even as reforms have been undertaken in every facet of life in China.
It’s obvious you’re skimming a comment for gotchas, so I find it just as likely you’ve skimmed excerpts of Marx rather than take on the rather arduous task of reading and understanding him, let alone fucking applying any of it
Unfortunate that lemmy is such awful software it doesn’t syndicate my changes I made months ago. I do not support Ukraine anymore, and have not for a long time.
Because the Chinese state has fiat monetary sovereignty, it doesn’t function in the capitalist mode. It has no need to make a profit because it has infinite money[1]. It doesn’t need to extract surplus value from workers, and it doesn’t even need to break even. The logic of capitalism doesn’t apply.
Yes, Capitalism is dominated by such a Mode of Production. It is not defined by it being present even in the microscopic. Answer, why do you think Marx and Engels wrong in the context of my quotations? This is a very “wikipedia” understanding of Marx. Do you think Marx believed Capitalism to not be dominant because feudalism was still apparent? This is silly.
It is not defined by it being present even in the microscopic.
Yeah, China does not have a ‘microscopic’ amount of commodity production, it is infact, dominated by commodity production.
Answer, why do you think Marx and Engels wrong in the context of my quotations?
They aren’t in that a certain level of productive forces are required to be present before the early stages of communism (socialism) can begin. No nation state has ever reached Socialism, in fact, it is impossible for a “Nation State” to really be socialist, from Engels principles of communism:
Will it be possible for this revolution to take place in one country alone?
No.
China is a bourgeoisie nation state, with a DoTB like every other nation state.
The PRC has a hair over 50% of its economy in the Public Sector, and another near tenth in the Cooperative Sector. The Private Sector makes up the minority of the economy. Furthermore, this Private Sector is gradually being folded into the Public Sector. Moreover, the Public Sector has key industries like Steel that the Private Sector must rely on, further making the Public Sector primary. In what manner is the Private Sector dominant? At what arbitrary point would you say the PRC needs to reach for it to pass your imaginary thresholds? This is silly, and anti-Marxist.
Your next paragraph elaborates on your conflation of Socialism with Communism. Communism must be international, and must be global, eventually. Socialism can begin in one country, as Socialism is the transitional phase to Communism. By your definition, a fully socialized economy in one country would still be Capitalist! Again, you directly shatter Marx and Engels telling you that under the DotP, Capital will be wrested gradually with the degree to which it develops, and call this phase “Capitalism” for seemingly no other reason than to discredit AES, even if it ends in absurd conclusions like a 99% socialized global economy being Capitalist, or a 100% socialized country being Capitalist.
This “no true Socialism” stance is anti-Marxist as well, Marx referred to the Paris Commune as a DotP and a Socialist system until it was overthrown. Even if we ignore all of AES that Marx never lived to, there has been Socialism even by Marx’s words. Same with Engels, who analyzed Utopian Socialists who were working down the wrong path, but still could be considered “Socialist.”
Additionally, productive forces have different levels of development in different sectors where public ownership and central planning makes more sense. There isn’t such thing as a “general” level of development. Your steel industry may be well developed and thus easily planned, but your automotive may not be yet, at which point you want to use markets to centralize and then gradually increase control and ownership over that industry until its fully socialized. To go further than reality is anti-Marxist.
Further, you reference a joke, and not actual working hours, when trying to discredit the PRC. Furthermore, such a system absolutely can be present in a DotP, a DotP does not mean there is suddenly a “worker’s paradise,” but that the Proletariat is in control. The CPC has an over 95% approval rate, unheard of in most countries, and it owes this to the rapid transformative capacity of a Socialist economy to rapidly plan and build up infrastructure, and eliminate poverty. I want to stress, you opt to not analyze the structures and class dynamics at play, and instead believe you can reference a joke about how the PRC isn’t a wonderland, not actual working hour statistics, and think that means the Bourgeoisie is in control? This is absurdity.
You have no points, Socialism is Communism for you, and you refer to a DotP with a largely publicly owned and centrally planned economy that is further absorbing the Private Sector as “Capitalist.” Can you please make a point that logically follows what Marx and Engels were writing and explain why they clearly stated that the DotP will gradually wrest Capital from the Bourgeoisie, and why you believe this phase to be called “Capitalism?” This reeks of Trotskyism, which coincidentally is only really found in western countries as it isn’t practical in any capacity and thus isn’t dangerous to the status quo, and moreover adopts an anti-solidarity stance with AES in the Global South.
The first sentence of Capital:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/Capital-Volume-I.pdf
Leftcoms favorite pastime, reductionism so severe you can split the atom with it
It’s not reductionist to say that China has all the elements of a Capitalist mode of production.
I swear to god ultras are more interested in the sort of masturbatory philosophising of categories than it actually producing any useful insights. It’s the most anti Marxist thing to insist that a thing has to be only a singular thing with a concrete and rigid definition, it’s like Marx didn’t bludgeon you with dialectical materialism hard enough on practically every work of his. He spends decades insisting on the dialectical process and the necessary work to resolve contradiction through material means, which is an integral part of development, only for y’all to go “but this is vaguely like thing, how can it be other thing?”
Man said communism and the abolishment of the commodity form, of private property, the development of the productive forces, couldn’t be achieved overnight, and every ultra went “but it’s already been overnight, so now it can be, right?”
It does when you ignore all the material differences. A state where the biggest capital holders are regularly punished if they break the law or step out of line politically is not a state where capital has final say.
There’s been no counter revolution in China, the organs of proletarian power remain in place even as reforms have been undertaken in every facet of life in China. It is the utmost chauvinism to pretend to know better than the biggest communist party in the world where even local officials are required to study Marxism diligently. Being really confident and having misunderstood Das Kapital to be a prescriptivist economical taxonomy doesn’t make you an authority on Marxism. Applying that shit is what does.
So you admit it is capitalist?
The state are capitalists, they employ workers in state enterprises and pay them a wage in exchange for their labor. They are just a different aristocratic rank then the private capitalists
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system
This system would NOT be possible in a DoTP.
Are you twelve? Jfc.
It’s obvious you’re skimming a comment for gotchas, so I find it just as likely you’ve skimmed excerpts of Marx rather than take on the rather arduous task of reading and understanding him, let alone fucking applying any of it
Infantile disorder moment.
deleted by creator
Unfortunate that lemmy is such awful software it doesn’t syndicate my changes I made months ago. I do not support Ukraine anymore, and have not for a long time.
That’s good to hear.
“996” was never legal, was never pervasive, and the state cracked down on it years ago.
Cool. Union-busting is illegal in the US too. Not paying overtime is illegal in the US too. Doesn’t make it DoTP.
Proof?
Proof?
It was a private tech industry thing, occurring within the relevant special economic zones. The same NATOpedia entry you posted: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system#Companies_involved
Again, the same NATOpedia entry you posted.
Because the Chinese state has fiat monetary sovereignty, it doesn’t function in the capitalist mode. It has no need to make a profit because it has infinite money[1]. It doesn’t need to extract surplus value from workers, and it doesn’t even need to break even. The logic of capitalism doesn’t apply.
Ultras fear the scroll.
Yeah all nation states have this. Countries that don’t call themselves socialist have state owned enterprise and turn a profit. Non-seqitur.
All states don’t have it, actually. None of the Eurozone states do, for instance, and the US didn’t until 1971.
You don’t seem to be engaging with the content I’ve posted, but here’s one by Gabriel Rockhill anyway: How The Left Should Analyze the Rise of a Multipolar World, China, Russia & BRICS
Yes, Capitalism is dominated by such a Mode of Production. It is not defined by it being present even in the microscopic. Answer, why do you think Marx and Engels wrong in the context of my quotations? This is a very “wikipedia” understanding of Marx. Do you think Marx believed Capitalism to not be dominant because feudalism was still apparent? This is silly.
Yeah, China does not have a ‘microscopic’ amount of commodity production, it is infact, dominated by commodity production.
They aren’t in that a certain level of productive forces are required to be present before the early stages of communism (socialism) can begin. No nation state has ever reached Socialism, in fact, it is impossible for a “Nation State” to really be socialist, from Engels principles of communism:
China is a bourgeoisie nation state, with a DoTB like every other nation state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system
This system would NOT be possible in a DoTP.
The PRC has a hair over 50% of its economy in the Public Sector, and another near tenth in the Cooperative Sector. The Private Sector makes up the minority of the economy. Furthermore, this Private Sector is gradually being folded into the Public Sector. Moreover, the Public Sector has key industries like Steel that the Private Sector must rely on, further making the Public Sector primary. In what manner is the Private Sector dominant? At what arbitrary point would you say the PRC needs to reach for it to pass your imaginary thresholds? This is silly, and anti-Marxist.
Your next paragraph elaborates on your conflation of Socialism with Communism. Communism must be international, and must be global, eventually. Socialism can begin in one country, as Socialism is the transitional phase to Communism. By your definition, a fully socialized economy in one country would still be Capitalist! Again, you directly shatter Marx and Engels telling you that under the DotP, Capital will be wrested gradually with the degree to which it develops, and call this phase “Capitalism” for seemingly no other reason than to discredit AES, even if it ends in absurd conclusions like a 99% socialized global economy being Capitalist, or a 100% socialized country being Capitalist.
This “no true Socialism” stance is anti-Marxist as well, Marx referred to the Paris Commune as a DotP and a Socialist system until it was overthrown. Even if we ignore all of AES that Marx never lived to, there has been Socialism even by Marx’s words. Same with Engels, who analyzed Utopian Socialists who were working down the wrong path, but still could be considered “Socialist.”
Additionally, productive forces have different levels of development in different sectors where public ownership and central planning makes more sense. There isn’t such thing as a “general” level of development. Your steel industry may be well developed and thus easily planned, but your automotive may not be yet, at which point you want to use markets to centralize and then gradually increase control and ownership over that industry until its fully socialized. To go further than reality is anti-Marxist.
Further, you reference a joke, and not actual working hours, when trying to discredit the PRC. Furthermore, such a system absolutely can be present in a DotP, a DotP does not mean there is suddenly a “worker’s paradise,” but that the Proletariat is in control. The CPC has an over 95% approval rate, unheard of in most countries, and it owes this to the rapid transformative capacity of a Socialist economy to rapidly plan and build up infrastructure, and eliminate poverty. I want to stress, you opt to not analyze the structures and class dynamics at play, and instead believe you can reference a joke about how the PRC isn’t a wonderland, not actual working hour statistics, and think that means the Bourgeoisie is in control? This is absurdity.
You have no points, Socialism is Communism for you, and you refer to a DotP with a largely publicly owned and centrally planned economy that is further absorbing the Private Sector as “Capitalist.” Can you please make a point that logically follows what Marx and Engels were writing and explain why they clearly stated that the DotP will gradually wrest Capital from the Bourgeoisie, and why you believe this phase to be called “Capitalism?” This reeks of Trotskyism, which coincidentally is only really found in western countries as it isn’t practical in any capacity and thus isn’t dangerous to the status quo, and moreover adopts an anti-solidarity stance with AES in the Global South.