Purchase of the device is Capitalism, because your money IS your vote, and YOU are the Capital of Capitalism!
In a planned economy, there are beepers and payphones. No one builds the most expensive commercial endeavor in all of human history – advanced silicon fab nodes.
Where can I find this arbitrary definition of capitalism? Because barters and lemonade in a free market stands still sounds like capitalism to me, just on a smaller scale. Just because it seems more sympathetic doesn’t mean it’s not the same thing.
Im not saying that what you describe in your first paragraph isn’t bad, but words have meaning. If you intend to spread your thoughts on them, you’d do well to go beyond “capitalism bad mkay” because it makes people take your thoughts less seriously. So you end up preaching to the choir who’s already on your side and we’ve learned from reddit, Twitter and Fox that echo chambers are bad.
Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their use for the purpose of obtaining profit. This socioeconomic system has developed historically through several stages and is defined by a number of basic constituent elements: private property, profit motive, capital accumulation, competitive markets, commodification, wage labor, and an emphasis on innovation and economic growth.
Careful with that rhetorical question or they’ll bring out a bunch of nutjobs books and ask you to read through untested and unrealistic theory from the past hundred years and then call you unintellectual for choosing the dictionary and textbook definitions over their pseudoscience.
Lemonade stands do not create silicon, or the equivalent of inventing the lemon. The vendor is irrelevant to the product itself.
You’d still have tech up until around 1996 CMOS technology. That is when things got stupid expensive beyond what bureaucratic nonsense would invest in. Neither the Soviets or Chinese were capable of recognising the implications of silicon and competing. It made the Soviet Union obsolete from an outdated military driven economy. Watch the computer history museum’s interviews of the people that were involved at the top of semiconductors and you will clearly see how this is what won the cold war and why.
William Shockley was the principal person that first understood how, for the first time in human history, a commercial endeavor would have exponential growth potential so strong that no military could afford to fund it by itself.
That era is over now BTW. We are less than 10 years out from the final fab node, and the real world hardware cycle is actually 10 years. Perhaps it is a coincidence, but that is likely the reason politics are shifting to a posture similar to the era of William Shockley, and the global trade required to support that exponential growth is no longer as relevant.
Authoritarian and bureaucratic systems never manage to lead in such unprecedented endeavors. At best, all they do is follow.
Capitalism is the lesser (but still quite) evil system. The only thing that actually matters is meritocracy. Bureaucracy lacks the meritocratic impetus to filter and motivate real leaders free from cronyism. In the present world, places like China have far better capitalism for the average person that cares about lemonade stands. But I don’t want to live in 1996, or 1896, or 1696 with people that plow with oxen and 15 kids running a lemonade stand, like would be the case without evil capitalism. The problem in the present is the lack of real capitalism. People do not take responsibility for their purchase vote, and governments are corrupted by an oligarchy.
When a real AGI exists and is capable of persistence and omnipresence, then we have solved the succession crisis to finally have a benevolent altruistic system capable of wielding trust. Humans are incapable of wielding trust in politics. The occasional ultra rare exception of incorruptible leadership that is altruistic, benevolent, and self deprecating is always followed by a succession crisis.
Trust is surrender of democracy to fascists and authoritarians. Skepticism, free information, and the right to error with full nonviolent autonomy are the antitheses of anyone peddling the fallacy of trust.
Purchase of the device is Capitalism, because your money IS your vote, and YOU are the Capital of Capitalism!
Capitalism describes the division of labour and profits, not the purchasing of goods. YOU are not theCapital in capitalism unless you are working for the profits of the owner. The root word of Capitalism is Caput, meaning head or cattle. Capitalism’s root definition is basically the ownership of cattle or chattel.
In a planned economy, there are beepers and payphones. No one builds the most expensive commercial endeavor in all of human history – advanced silicon fab nodes
According to? The Soviets made it to space before we did, and China currently fabricates the vast majority of that technology. Technology isn’t native to any economic structure.
Semantics do not create meaning, they describe it, poorly in most cases as vernacular evolves.
According to the people involved at the heads of the businesses in the industry. There has been a large effort by the computer history museum to interview these people and record their verbal histories. Most of the people that worked for William Shockley have been interviewed and recorded, along with their protégés. Bo Lojek of Motorola also wrote History of Semiconductor Engineering (Springer).
Semantics do not create meaning, they describe it, poorly in most cases as vernacular evolves.
Claiming something is a semantic dispute by rote when being corrected is different than engaging in a reasonable semantic dispute.
Words do have meaning, and vernacular hasn’t changed enough to completely alter the meaning of an entire economic system…
Most of the people that worked for William Shockley have been interviewed and recorded, along with their protégés. Bo Lojek of Motorola also wrote History of Semiconductor Engineering (Springer).
Are you claiming that certain technologies can only be developed under capitalism? Or that semiconductor engineering would have never surpassed a certain stage without a particular economic system? What does any of that have to do with the division of labour and profits?
I do not care to argue with you like this. I come here to hang out with digital neighbors, not to have some angry debate. I get nothing out of this, and for a disabled guy in social isolation, these have a disproportionate negative impact. On my original LW account I just blocked everyone that argues or down votes as such toxic negativity is unwelcome, unnecessary, and mildly harmful to everyone. Perhaps stating the effects plainly will have different results. The trials of physical disability may include a much reduced margin for adversarial encounters and contention. It is a subtle prejudice that is impossible to avoid.
I disagree with you, but this is fine, and I still respect you as a human. I do not wish to pick apart a dichotomy when dichotomous logic is always insufficient to define reality. I want to argue, but must stop to avoid a spiral. Have a great day.
do not care to argue with you like this. I come here to hang out with digital neighbors, not to have some angry debate.
I don’t think we’re engaging in an angry argument? At least, I’m not upset. I think I’m just rebutting some of your claims and asking for clarification?
I get nothing out of this, and for a disabled guy in social isolation, these have a disproportionate negative impact. On my original LW account I just blocked everyone that argues or down votes as such toxic negativity is unwelcome, unnecessary, and mildly harmful to everyone.
So anyone who disagrees with you is being negative or harmful? I don’t really see how being disabled gives you the right to make inarguable inflammatory claims in a public forum.
The trials of physical disability may include a much reduced margin for adversarial encounters and contention. It is a subtle prejudice that is impossible to avoid.
You may want to talk to someone about that, but In my experience any prejudice you are self aware of are prejudices that can be avoided.
Idk kind of sounds like capitalism with extra steps. Seems like the major difference between people who oppose capitalism and everyone else is just how they define the word.
What exactly does the meme imply the solution is? State operated companies? Only allowing cooperative companies? Lynching CEOs and hoping the next batch will be better, AKA “doing a luigi”?
The reason it isn’t capitalism with extra steps is that the defining trait of capitalism vs socialism isn’t the presence of markets (which long predate capitalism as a distinct concept), but rather who owns what and how that ownership is justified and structured. Now, arguably market socialism is more similar to capitalism than a planned economy is, but capitalism doesn’t just mean an unplanned economy either (as those, again, are much more ancient than the term implies).
I don’t think the meme implies any particular solution. To be honest, it doesn’t really even imply a problem to be solved. To my eyes it just looks like it’s just mocking a particular argument used to defend capitalism, without really communicating much beyond a distaste for that argument and presumably with capitalism in general.
I do not care for the terminology either. I care about a meritocratic system ruled by something like the principal of the Hippocratic altruism “first do no harm.” Trust is vulnerability that leads to harm despite the best of intentions. Trust leads to authoritarianism which is a failure of the present world dystopia. Systematic trust leads to sectarianism and conflict over the margins where the most vulnerable are harmed. It also steals things like your fundamental right to own property, meaning all of your purchases, and allows extortion into a fair market forum where the even value of money itself is negotiable with hidden middle persons skimming every transaction as normal and ameliorating their extortion across all citizens, (credit cards/money processors).
Why would anyone build beepers if there are no mobile phones? That’s an entire wireless infrastructure that doesn’t need to be created or maintained. Beepers were the impetus for early wireless repeaters and signal towers. Phones created the data and load bearing standards but the hardware was built for the devices before phones.
In a planned economy the onus is on the person to be where they need to make or receive a call. Like the 70s and rotary phones. “Plan your day around what the day has planned for you” is what one of the most annoying teachers I’ve ever had said and it’s the perfect model for blaming the individual for problems outside their control. And that’s why central planners will use it to deflect from criticism.
Look at the process nodes involved and their cost to create the fabs. Late 1990’s CMOS was still in the hundreds of millions for a fab node and the surrounding technology was many many orders of magnitude cheaper than what it takes to make the phones of today. People just do not realize how fabs are the single most expensive endeavor is all of human history. This is absolutely what has shaped the world from 1960 to today. Prior economies were driven by militaries as their principal means of economic growth. The exponential growth of silicon has been that principal driver since the 1980s when it surpassed military spending.
I’ve done this job of Buying for a commercial retail chain. I was the bureaucracy like system. I was deeply conservative. People like that are never willing to stand in the present and spend two orders of magnitude more to take the next step blindly into the future at the behest of a few brilliant people. Their rivals will tear them apart without insulation between such decisions and politics.
So you still get to the stage where silicon fabs are as big as other large industries in an economy, but they never eclipse all other industries and even militaries.
I play in the biggest of pictures. In that picture, you have beepers at best.
Purchase of the device is Capitalism, because your money IS your vote, and YOU are the Capital of Capitalism!
In a planned economy, there are beepers and payphones. No one builds the most expensive commercial endeavor in all of human history – advanced silicon fab nodes.
creation of a surplus of devices, through exploitation, for the purposes of profit is capitalism.
just buying stuff is just markets. barters and lemonade stands are not capitalist.
Where can I find this arbitrary definition of capitalism? Because barters and lemonade in a free market stands still sounds like capitalism to me, just on a smaller scale. Just because it seems more sympathetic doesn’t mean it’s not the same thing.
Im not saying that what you describe in your first paragraph isn’t bad, but words have meaning. If you intend to spread your thoughts on them, you’d do well to go beyond “capitalism bad mkay” because it makes people take your thoughts less seriously. So you end up preaching to the choir who’s already on your side and we’ve learned from reddit, Twitter and Fox that echo chambers are bad.
from wikipedia, for instance, with my highlights:
Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their use for the purpose of obtaining profit. This socioeconomic system has developed historically through several stages and is defined by a number of basic constituent elements: private property, profit motive, capital accumulation, competitive markets, commodification, wage labor, and an emphasis on innovation and economic growth.
Careful with that rhetorical question or they’ll bring out a bunch of nutjobs books and ask you to read through untested and unrealistic theory from the past hundred years and then call you unintellectual for choosing the dictionary and textbook definitions over their pseudoscience.
Lemonade stands do not create silicon, or the equivalent of inventing the lemon. The vendor is irrelevant to the product itself.
You’d still have tech up until around 1996 CMOS technology. That is when things got stupid expensive beyond what bureaucratic nonsense would invest in. Neither the Soviets or Chinese were capable of recognising the implications of silicon and competing. It made the Soviet Union obsolete from an outdated military driven economy. Watch the computer history museum’s interviews of the people that were involved at the top of semiconductors and you will clearly see how this is what won the cold war and why.
William Shockley was the principal person that first understood how, for the first time in human history, a commercial endeavor would have exponential growth potential so strong that no military could afford to fund it by itself.
That era is over now BTW. We are less than 10 years out from the final fab node, and the real world hardware cycle is actually 10 years. Perhaps it is a coincidence, but that is likely the reason politics are shifting to a posture similar to the era of William Shockley, and the global trade required to support that exponential growth is no longer as relevant.
Authoritarian and bureaucratic systems never manage to lead in such unprecedented endeavors. At best, all they do is follow.
Capitalism is the lesser (but still quite) evil system. The only thing that actually matters is meritocracy. Bureaucracy lacks the meritocratic impetus to filter and motivate real leaders free from cronyism. In the present world, places like China have far better capitalism for the average person that cares about lemonade stands. But I don’t want to live in 1996, or 1896, or 1696 with people that plow with oxen and 15 kids running a lemonade stand, like would be the case without evil capitalism. The problem in the present is the lack of real capitalism. People do not take responsibility for their purchase vote, and governments are corrupted by an oligarchy.
When a real AGI exists and is capable of persistence and omnipresence, then we have solved the succession crisis to finally have a benevolent altruistic system capable of wielding trust. Humans are incapable of wielding trust in politics. The occasional ultra rare exception of incorruptible leadership that is altruistic, benevolent, and self deprecating is always followed by a succession crisis.
Trust is surrender of democracy to fascists and authoritarians. Skepticism, free information, and the right to error with full nonviolent autonomy are the antitheses of anyone peddling the fallacy of trust.
Humans did invent lemons to enjoy them, though. It was a very large and organized undertaking which led to commercial success for Egypt.
k big lemon
and during a time … before capitalism. ;)
TBH Egypt was everything Communists claim about Capitalism. Idk why you would think otherwise.
Capitalism describes the division of labour and profits, not the purchasing of goods. YOU are not theCapital in capitalism unless you are working for the profits of the owner. The root word of Capitalism is Caput, meaning head or cattle. Capitalism’s root definition is basically the ownership of cattle or chattel.
According to? The Soviets made it to space before we did, and China currently fabricates the vast majority of that technology. Technology isn’t native to any economic structure.
Semantics do not create meaning, they describe it, poorly in most cases as vernacular evolves.
According to the people involved at the heads of the businesses in the industry. There has been a large effort by the computer history museum to interview these people and record their verbal histories. Most of the people that worked for William Shockley have been interviewed and recorded, along with their protégés. Bo Lojek of Motorola also wrote History of Semiconductor Engineering (Springer).
Claiming something is a semantic dispute by rote when being corrected is different than engaging in a reasonable semantic dispute.
Words do have meaning, and vernacular hasn’t changed enough to completely alter the meaning of an entire economic system…
Are you claiming that certain technologies can only be developed under capitalism? Or that semiconductor engineering would have never surpassed a certain stage without a particular economic system? What does any of that have to do with the division of labour and profits?
I do not care to argue with you like this. I come here to hang out with digital neighbors, not to have some angry debate. I get nothing out of this, and for a disabled guy in social isolation, these have a disproportionate negative impact. On my original LW account I just blocked everyone that argues or down votes as such toxic negativity is unwelcome, unnecessary, and mildly harmful to everyone. Perhaps stating the effects plainly will have different results. The trials of physical disability may include a much reduced margin for adversarial encounters and contention. It is a subtle prejudice that is impossible to avoid.
I disagree with you, but this is fine, and I still respect you as a human. I do not wish to pick apart a dichotomy when dichotomous logic is always insufficient to define reality. I want to argue, but must stop to avoid a spiral. Have a great day.
I don’t think we’re engaging in an angry argument? At least, I’m not upset. I think I’m just rebutting some of your claims and asking for clarification?
So anyone who disagrees with you is being negative or harmful? I don’t really see how being disabled gives you the right to make inarguable inflammatory claims in a public forum.
You may want to talk to someone about that, but In my experience any prejudice you are self aware of are prejudices that can be avoided.
You too.
deleted by creator
Absolutely nothing requires the only two options to be capitalisim and planned economy. Market socialism is a thing.
Idk kind of sounds like capitalism with extra steps. Seems like the major difference between people who oppose capitalism and everyone else is just how they define the word.
What exactly does the meme imply the solution is? State operated companies? Only allowing cooperative companies? Lynching CEOs and hoping the next batch will be better, AKA “doing a luigi”?
The reason it isn’t capitalism with extra steps is that the defining trait of capitalism vs socialism isn’t the presence of markets (which long predate capitalism as a distinct concept), but rather who owns what and how that ownership is justified and structured. Now, arguably market socialism is more similar to capitalism than a planned economy is, but capitalism doesn’t just mean an unplanned economy either (as those, again, are much more ancient than the term implies).
I don’t think the meme implies any particular solution. To be honest, it doesn’t really even imply a problem to be solved. To my eyes it just looks like it’s just mocking a particular argument used to defend capitalism, without really communicating much beyond a distaste for that argument and presumably with capitalism in general.
I do not care for the terminology either. I care about a meritocratic system ruled by something like the principal of the Hippocratic altruism “first do no harm.” Trust is vulnerability that leads to harm despite the best of intentions. Trust leads to authoritarianism which is a failure of the present world dystopia. Systematic trust leads to sectarianism and conflict over the margins where the most vulnerable are harmed. It also steals things like your fundamental right to own property, meaning all of your purchases, and allows extortion into a fair market forum where the even value of money itself is negotiable with hidden middle persons skimming every transaction as normal and ameliorating their extortion across all citizens, (credit cards/money processors).
Why would anyone build beepers if there are no mobile phones? That’s an entire wireless infrastructure that doesn’t need to be created or maintained. Beepers were the impetus for early wireless repeaters and signal towers. Phones created the data and load bearing standards but the hardware was built for the devices before phones.
In a planned economy the onus is on the person to be where they need to make or receive a call. Like the 70s and rotary phones. “Plan your day around what the day has planned for you” is what one of the most annoying teachers I’ve ever had said and it’s the perfect model for blaming the individual for problems outside their control. And that’s why central planners will use it to deflect from criticism.
Look at the process nodes involved and their cost to create the fabs. Late 1990’s CMOS was still in the hundreds of millions for a fab node and the surrounding technology was many many orders of magnitude cheaper than what it takes to make the phones of today. People just do not realize how fabs are the single most expensive endeavor is all of human history. This is absolutely what has shaped the world from 1960 to today. Prior economies were driven by militaries as their principal means of economic growth. The exponential growth of silicon has been that principal driver since the 1980s when it surpassed military spending.
I’ve done this job of Buying for a commercial retail chain. I was the bureaucracy like system. I was deeply conservative. People like that are never willing to stand in the present and spend two orders of magnitude more to take the next step blindly into the future at the behest of a few brilliant people. Their rivals will tear them apart without insulation between such decisions and politics.
So you still get to the stage where silicon fabs are as big as other large industries in an economy, but they never eclipse all other industries and even militaries.
I play in the biggest of pictures. In that picture, you have beepers at best.